The no campaign is split between: It does too much and it doesn’t do enough. I’ll vote yes.
That’s the Nationals and Liberals line. That it’ll clog up the process of government as they seek to get involved with everything. They also throw a dog whistle in there about it creating two classes of Australians
Yeah, it’s just fear-mongering IMO
It’s interesting. The No vote is:
First Nations people who are concerned this is lip service and won’t lead to truth and treaty and
old school racists who think it will.
Why not support the voice?
The ‘Progressive No’ movement has pretty valid reasons to be against it, though as a non-Indigenous Australian I find it very difficult to consider voting no myself. The fact that I actually get to vote on this is honestly ridiculous, particularly when my vote is worth twice that of someone who it is supposed to be benefiting.
I mean, the fact that Dutton is supporting No would be enough reason for me to vote Yes
Edit: I am not saying this is the only reason. I very much believe that the first nations peoples should have a Voice
Voting because someone else does or doesn’t vote this way or that is sport not politics. I would hope that most people take it far more seriously.
You write that like they don’t both exist . And anyway, recognising the actions and policies of a political figure as being a polar opposite to your belief system is still a valid call.
spite is a powerful motivator.
My guess is the reverse is true also in that Dutton supporters will vote no because he is.
Yeah they keep saying there is a sound progressive case for no, but even Thorpe had a mouthful of nothing when asked to elaborate.
Saying you have reasons that you then won’t state isn’t the same as an actual argument
The simple truth is this is how modern politics works, you take the wins you can and keep scraping and clawing away for more, it’s why the desperately avaricious are drawn to it.
What do you mean by your ‘vote is worth twice that of someone who it is supposed to be benefiting’?
Is that in reference to the ‘double-majority’, where NT and ACT don’t count for the ‘majority of States’ count (because a large number of Aboriginal and Torrest Strait islander people live in the NT)?
Yes, that’s correct. I live in SA, so my vote counts towards both majorities. Technically there are more Indigenous Australians living in the states than the territories (according to the ABS), but the NT is where a lot of the remaining Indigenous communities (who government “help” is usually targeted towards) reside.
A few of my good friends are indigenous and their whole families are against it. I haven’t really heard a good reason why this “voice” will make any difference - can anyone enlighten me? It just doesn’t seem like it will have any actual power assigned with it. The elected person will say “You need to stop mining our land” and the government will go “lol no” and keep mining.
Based on how many indigenous groups our country was split up in, having a single voice representing them all doesn’t seem like it will work either.
I posted this down below, but my personal take on this is that the Voice is meant as a symbol. A symbol embedded right into our constitution. One that cannot be hidden away behind govt bureaucracy. One that isn’t beholden to the party machinery like so many aboriginal MPs are. The most important thing is that it gets aboriginal people a foot in the door. A lasting change that can be used as a stepping stone to Truth and Treaty. Something that will let them constantly be noticed by parliament instead of just having a bone thrown to them whenever a pollie needs to score political points.
@Whirlybird @Ilandar Honestly, I feel that the government missed a step by not first establishing a means to get the opinions of indigenous australians directly… a sort of mini-referendum asking indigenous peoples if they even want to be a part of and be represented by the Australian government.
I’ll still vote yes, mainly due to the constitutional recognition. Everything else can be fixed later on; all things considered it’s a cheaper mistake to fix compared to the NBN
The way the whole proposition has been framed (rightly or wrongly) is it’s a pet-project for Albo, and comes across again as white folks telling Aboriginal and Torres Strait islander peoples "this’ll be good for you, and it’ll work this time ;) "
At the moment I don’t see how the voice proposal is any different to the plethora of government agencies and outreach groups that have ultimately failed to make a difference over the years. If the referendum was actually two questions - constitutional recognition for Aboriginal and Torres Strait islander people, and a second one on the voice, there would probably be less resistance; I would hazard a guess that most people in the ‘No’ camp (except the actual racists) don’t have issues with constitutional recognition per se, but with the lack of detail around the Voice itself.
The way the whole proposition has been framed (rightly or wrongly) is it’s a pet-project for Albo, and comes across again as white folks telling Aboriginal and Torres Strait islander peoples "this’ll be good for you, and it’ll work this time ;) "
I agree that Labor has been virtue signalling pretty hard and is basically playing the familiar white saviour role yet again, but don’t forget that the Voice was something put to them by Indigenous leaders themselves.
I would hazard a guess that most people in the ‘No’ camp (except the actual racists) don’t have issues with constitutional recognition per se, but with the lack of detail around the Voice itself.
At least in terms of the Blak Sovereignty Movement, they take issue with the constitutional recognition bit but their main concern, and the one that is leading them to vote No, is that the Voice ultimately has no power and is still completely at the whim of the government of the day. They want Treaty and something akin to the model used in New Zealand, where Indigenous representatives actually have real power within the established political system.
That was supposed to be the point of the Uluru Statement from the Heart, though. There is literally a quote on their website from the Adelaide dialogue that reads:
Out in the communities, they are the last people to be informed about what is going on. All of a sudden, legislation or something else is happening and they just don’t know anything about it.
The fact that there are still Indigenous communities that have literally never heard of the Voice, as has been reported in the last couple of weeks, is a concern. Obviously it’s unrealistic to expect everyone will be in the loop but it does feel like a step has been missed somewhere.
We had some cultural training at work the other day - a whole day session. It was really great and I think a few people came away with changed minds and hearts over a few things that they just never understood before.
The real shock of the day came when the person leading it announced that she would vote no. She explained that they are currently actively fighting a native title battle with one of the neighboring groups, and that this was extremely typical. That a single ‘voice to parliament’ is akin to the original sin of having herded thousands of different language groups into singular camps, far from home.
I hadn’t really thought of it like that. The facilitator is obviously out there fighting for representation but a singular voice to parliament sort of ignores the entire first nations culture, and grievances. It’s a very white solution to a very black issue.
The Voice design principles say that local groups will be asked to provide input.
These principles commit the government to a Voice that is chosen based on the wishes of local communities, is not appointed by government, reflects gender balance and youth perspectives, and all members must be Indigenous.
This article is really worth reading, it addresses a lot of the fears and misinformation out there.
Thanks for the article, will give it a read. I’m still undecided as yeh most indigenous people I’ve seen posting about it on my social media are against it, but surely giving them a protected seat at the table is better than not having one.
It could be argued that they were given that protected seat at the table in 1962 when all Indigenous Australians were given the right to vote. That gives them the same level of voice and representation as that of every Australian citizen.
Put it this way: Imagine you’d been trying for fifty years to push a rock up a hill and failed. You’ve tried a different approach every five years and nothing seemed to work: sometimes it made it worse.
Then a committee of rocks representing the majority of rocks got together and volunteered to come up with new ideas for you. It wouldn’t cost you much, and it would make the rocks much happier knowing there’s a rock involved in the decision making.
What’s the harm? You’ve failed to push that rock for so long. You’ve tried everything. Maybe they will be right? And if they are not, you’ll be back where you started with sweet FA.
Sure, the rocks down the road are sceptical. But what are their ideas? Are they gonna do anything about it?
Either the Voice is successfully implemented and ends up being an utterly useless and expensive waste of time with no practical benefit, or it is not successfully implemented and it ends up being an utterly useless and expensive waste of time with no practical benefit.
I can’t wait for this nonsense to be over.
I think she’s right, it’s a fair and practical move. Not sure if I’d say that all No campaigns for the Uluru Statement use Trump-style politics like she says, but the Fair Australia one is certainly weak and uses the “pointing out racism creates division” thing that anti-CRT Americans like to use so much.
The coalitions entire thing has been sewing doubt by lying about what the voice is and how it was started. I’m disappointed because their efforts most likely will result in nothing happening. And for what? They gain nothing from knocking the voice back.
They gain a maintenance of status quo and a liiitle bit more fearmongering
That’s the part I don’t understand, supporting this could have been a watershed moment for the coalition, and right when they desperately need to appeal to a mainstream audience.
I agree! I also really can’t understand that either. It seemed obvious. What happened to the “good long look at ourselves” they promised after the federal election? Maybe they’re done looking and saw only perfection haha.
They probably want to deny Albo and Labor anything nice.
It is the standard conservative policy. Block everything the opposition tries to do when they’re in power and blame them for everything when they’re not.
To be bluntly honest, if Lidia Thorpe is against it, it’s probably a good move.
@minkshaman @Ilandar 😂 I kinda see her as a left-wing pauline hanson; makes a big scene and is seen as a joke by everyone else except those that drank the kool-aid
i mean, she raises valid concerns, but on balance they don’t outweigh the net gain. I’m reticent to just dismiss her concerns as they kind of highlight why this is so vital, the cultural cynicism and distrust in Australian politics takes on a far more visceral and personal bent for Indigenous Australians after all(rightly so).
I think Lidia is tops.
There is nothing stopping her making a Voice right now, and showing what it can do. I’m really afriad Linda Burney is in an echo chamber and doesn’t see the massive flaws.
@UnfortunateDoorHinge @Ilandar eh, the flaws are really that the Voice is essentially toothless and is subject to the whims of the government of the day.
But at least it’s a step towards something. It’s a formal acknowledgement that the aboriginal people are part of and is represented by and in the government.
So, yeah, I’m pretty unimpressed by the execution since it’s essentially a blank piece of paper that says “IOU one bureaucratic body”. But the end result is the formal inclusion of aboriginal peoples into the Australian constitution, which has been sorely lacking.
If it was anything more than an advisory body no one would ever get it to pass a referendum. If they skipped the constitution by legislating something with more teeth than it currently is the Coalition would spend now until election time campaigning against it about how it was “forced” on people instead of it being a referendum.
@PostAndRun yeah, I get that argument and see the point… I just think it needed _something_ so that a government can’t just gut it completely and claim that they’re still listening because there’s a token body…
Anyway, getting something on the books is better than having absolutely nothing.
Yeah, sort of agreed on the toothless comment. I was big on the Voice when I first heard about it, and I’m still for it, but I’m a lot more pessimistic about its strength now. Maybe it’ll make more sense when the whole Uluru Statement is established.
Not sure what you mean by that. How would she go about making a Voice on her own?
Through parliament without a constitutional change. Or by making representation to the government on behalf of the aboriginal and Torres strait Islander peoples independently, as a unified body.
I disagree. I think there are too many competing bodies to have one organically represent all. I think having it in the constitution adds gravitas and says that we as a society and country are listening.
By engaging with the existing representative body that has already been established - The National Indigenous Australians Agency (NIAA).
It employs 1,023 full time staff and manages a budget of $285M each year specifically for the purpose to “lead and influence change across government to ensure Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples have a say in the decisions that affect them.”
https://www.niaa.gov.au/who-we-are/the-agency@morry040 @Ilandar @UnfortunateDoorHinge @phonyphanty
From the NIAA website about the voice:
“The referendum is about whether we should change the Constitution to recognise the First Peoples of Australia by establishing a body called the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Voice.”
So a bit of a difference in scope… one’s about constitutional recognition (with a side of a government advisory body) and the other is a government agency.
It’s a bit of a shame that everyone’s removed about the ill-defined government body part of it (including me, I’ll admit it…) and we’re all glossing over the constitutional recognition aspect of it.
True, didn’t know that was a thing. I assume people who are leading the Voice movement don’t find it to be sufficient enough – I wonder why? I suppose because it has no constitutional recognition? But why not use the NIAA as a basis? Would be interesting to learn the reasoning there.
We’ve tried that, the LNP dismantles it the second they get into power.
Are you a constitutional lawyer? If not, then I don’t think you’re qualified to talk about flaws in a constitutional amendment. Instead, listen to the ones who are (who overwhelmingly support it).
This constitutional amendment doesn’t do anything to prevent the Coalition dismantling it. There’s zero detail of its makeup, other than the existence of something called “The Voice”. If he had control in both houses, Dutton could simply redefine “The Voice” as being the Minister for Indigenous Affairs, and disband everything else.
You can’t say “it’s so important that it can’t be left up to the government of the day to legislate it”, but when people ask “where’s the detail?” the answer is “the detail isn’t in the amendment because the government of the day will legislate it”.
Are you a lawyer? Have you read the actual wording of the Constitution Alteration (Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Voice) 2023?
The proposed amendment says:
In recognition of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples as the First Peoples of Australia:
i. there shall be a body, to be called the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Voice;
ii. the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Voice may make representations to the Parliament and the Executive Government of the Commonwealth on matters relating to Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples;
iii. the Parliament shall, subject to this Constitution, have power to make laws with respect to matters relating to the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Voice, including its composition, functions, powers and procedures.
That last paragraph means that the government of the day can still functionaly gut the Voice by altering its “composition, functions, powers and procedures” and then ignoring its representations anyway.
To me the only real value I see is the first paragraph, which formally acknowledges the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islanders as First Peoples.
Edit: typo, no one will be recognised as “Dirst Peoples”
But what about Durst Peoples?
They’ll just keep rollin’.
It’s not that simple. Each time that an agency was dismantled, it was always replaced by something else. If we were to look at the history:
Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Commission - established by Labor, dismantled by Liberals
Ministerial Taskforce on Indigenous Affairs - established by Liberals, dismantled by Labor
Office of Indigenous Policy Coordination - established by Liberals, dismantled by Labor
National Indigenous Council - established by Liberals, dismantled by Labor
Department of Families, Housing, Community Services and Indigenous Affairs - established by Labor, dismantled by Liberals
Indigenous Advisory Council - established by Liberals and still exists
National Indigenous Australians Agency - established by Liberals and still existsLooking back through the history, it could be argued that Abbott was responsible for the heaviest dismantling, but it wasn’t really connected to election cycles.
The current structure under the NIAA seems to be the most detailed, transparent, and accountable body that we have had so far. The Corporate Plan and Reconciliation Action Plan are worth a read. It definitely makes you wonder why we need a Voice when the plans, structure, and hierarchy is already in place.
https://www.niaa.gov.au/sites/default/files/publications/niaa-rap-2022-25.pdf
https://www.niaa.gov.au/sites/default/files/publications/niaa-corporate-plan-2022-23_0.pdfIt definitely makes you wonder why we need a Voice when the plans, structure, and hierarchy is already in place.
So that there is a permanent Aboriginal presence in govt that cannot be removed at the whims of the sitting govt. I know the wording says the composition and appointees can be determined by parliament but the body must always be there. The symbolism is the important part. Something visible, not hidden away amongst the various govt departments.
