I guess my question is specific to the british royal family.
I saw a post online that said “God save the King” and had a photo of the king. The idea of a monarch or reverence for any other type of leader simply because they are the leader is outside of my experience.
I’m not here to disagree or argue, please don’t feel like you need to justify or convince me. I can accept that people value different things.
I would like to understand the appeal the monarchy or even specifically King Charles has for people who respect and support the monarchy.
Reasoning aside, it’s just human nature.
In a room full of idiots, the loudest one will end up being the boss. Overtime, that elongates into a lineage that people don’t want to mess with.
Monarchists tend not to have a lot of free thought and do things just because that’s the way they’ve always been done.
Which isn’t to diminish it, some humans are just made like that, they follow a process to procreate, not cause a commotion and die in peace. Social proof if you will.
I’m Saudi, and honestly, if it weren’t for the monarchy, particularly the Crown Prince, we never would have seen the reforms we’ve had, at least not this quickly. The monarchy’s absolute power has been used to bypass conservative religious institutions that had stalled social progress for decades.
Because the leadership doesn’t have to navigate legislative gridlock or worry about election cycles, it can push through massive, transformative changes almost overnight: granting women the right to drive, curbing the sweeping powers of the religious police, opening the country to tourism, entertainment, and cinemas, and launching major economic reforms and giga-projects.
As a woman, I can walk around the city without covering my hair and not be bothered by anyone. Around ten years ago, I could have been arrested for that. That’s where the appeal lies for me.
It’s interesting to read this perspective. In the west, MBS is probably best known for butchering journalists.
The only problem I see with this is: where is the safeguard it doesn’t swing in the other direction when someone new takes over?
If there were no monarchy, it wouldn’t swing in either direction. People would just vote for the most religious and conservative candidates and keep the system exactly where it was. Saudi society isn’t really suited to liberal democracy at the moment because most people don’t actually want it. The only reason these reforms happened is because someone with enough power was able to push them through despite conservative opposition. Could a future ruler reverse some of it? Sure. But without the monarchy, I don’t think we’d have gotten these reforms at all. I’d rather take the risk of occasional backsliding than guarantee no progress whatsoever.
So… this version of the Saudi Royal Family is swining this way. Other versions of the royal family have not.
With a monarchy, you don’t have 4 year cycles. The leadership lasts much longer than that.
Once the safeguard is in place for long enough that it becomes the norm, it becomes harder to reverse.
There’s a LOT of possible problems with a monarchy, but the biggest advantage is much longer leadership cycles reducing the whiplash of policy change.
Thank you for your response! I can understand the appeal of a powerful person who uses that power to protect you.
Interesting.
As a woman, I can walk around the city without covering my hair and not be bothered by anyone.
Is this true in general? Is Mecca (or Medina for that matter) included?
I never been there, but my folks have for Hajj. You can probably guess the country, we have the largest Muslim by population.
So my anecdote for Saudi generally refer to those two particular place.
Included in the sense that Saudi law does not strictly require women to wear a hijab on public streets there, just as in Riyadh or Jeddah, yes. Culturally, however, because Mecca and Medina are the two holiest cities in Islam, virtually all local women and most female visitors will wear a hijab and abaya out of religious devotion and respect for the setting.
I’m Norwegian, not British, but we also have a constitutional monarchy. I like it for mostly cynical reasons. They take care of ribbon-cutting and other big ceremonies so the politicians can focus on policy, and they give us a “head of state” that’s statistically less likely to become a dictator than an elected president is.
And all the drama and bullshit is a continuous reminder of what a bad idea it would be to institute genuine monarchy.
The question can also be applied to why people believe in God / follow a religion. The notion of monarchy has (in the UK at least) been tied into pseudo religious notions of ‘chosen by god’ or similar, so it ties into that belief system for better or worse. (Historically the tie-in was to co-opt the obedience baked into faith, but that’s probably lost on modern monarchists and believers.)
People everywhere develop unhealthy relationships with those that are oblivious to them, or outright parasitic and damaging. This is another of those that’s been wrapped up in tradition and ceremony under the guise of ‘normality’ and the status quo. ‘Ignorance is bliss’ may apply.
I’m from the UK and I’m a Monarchist in so much as I want to keep the Royal Family. I certainly don’t like the idea of Kings and Queens broadly speaking and “respect” is a strong word, but here in the UK we’ve got a lot of institutions that have vile histories but wouldn’t serve to benefit anyone if we were to scrap them today.
The Mountbatten-Windsor family also happen to be the Royal Family. These days they’re basically powerless and have less influence and sway than pundits on GB News, the Murdoch media and Facebook, who also aren’t elected. But they’re still an aristocratic family, which means they have access to extraordinary wealth and control of a vast business empire… except they don’t. All their estates, land, businesses, interests, etc are held in reserve as the Crown Estate which is operated on their behalf by a Government-appointed manager. The income from the Crown Estate goes straight to the Government and the Government pays the Royal Family a salary - the Sovereign Grant - which is typically between 25% and 35% of the Crown Estate’s profits. So for all those people who say “ThEy’Re TaX dOdGiNg PaRaSiTeS”: they pay an effective tax rate of at least 60%, which is about 60% more than anyone else with that income. Anyone who moans about the couple of quid a year the Royal Family “costs” them must be ecstatic beyond words to learn about the few extra quid they actually make in profit.
Having a Royal Family is amazing for tourism. Yes, the French have palaces too, but they attract nothing like the numbers as the actual real, functioning palaces and castles actually used by a real, breathing monarchs. The Palace of Versailles makes Buckingham Palace look like a shanty but can you guess which one nets more visitors? Windsor Castle, same deal. Moreover, they’re an amazing soft political power. What would your response be if you found out the Prime Minister of the UK was visiting your country? For most people it’d probably be “oh, who is it this week?”. But what about a visit from the Actual King of England? There would be grand receptions, concerts, speeches, unveilings, all because the Actual King of Actual England is coming. Add demagogues like Trump to the equation and the Royal’s value is amplified further.
Then there’s the scrutiny. We all know the Andrew Formally Known As Prince being a nasty little pervert and I wouldn’t be surprised if there’s far more to it. And yet, no-one talks about the Dysons, or the Cavendish-es, or the Rothschilds, or the Montagus, and so on, all of whom are richer and more powerful than the Mountbatten-Windsors and far, far, far more sinister and vile, but they’re not the Royal Family so they’re unknowns. They make the Royals look like cherubs, but they’re well-connected enough to avoid scrutiny and smart enough to remain basically anonymous. Personally, if I was the King I’d tell the UK to fuck off. I’d make the UK a Republic, take my estates and wealth and power back, thankyou very much, and tell everyone to go suck their Mum’s dicks. I don’t know why or how they continue being the Royal Family, but if we “got rid” of them tomorrow we’d lose a tremendous political power and gain yet another unaccountable group of unjustifiably powerful aristocrats.
Thank you for your detailed reply! Some of what you said didn’t match my understanding. I recognize I’m taking this from wiki vs your experience as a person from the UK, but maybe you can help me understand?
But they’re still an aristocratic family, which means they have access to extraordinary wealth and control of a vast business empire… except they don’t. All their estates, land, businesses, interests, etc are held in reserve as the Crown Estate which is operated on their behalf by a Government-appointed manager. The income from the Crown Estate goes straight to the Government and the Government pays the Royal Family a salary - the Sovereign Grant - which is typically between 25% and 35% of the Crown Estate’s profits.
I don’t think this is true. For example:
- they own private residences
- some of the privately owned residences are maintained by a self sustaining not for profit which means admission costs etc pay for the upkeep of these private properties.
- the holdings of the Crown Estate are massive, but the intent of the money is to cover the cost of being a royal.
- “In addition to the Sovereign Grant, the monarch continues to receive the revenue of the Duchy of Lancaster, while the Prince of Wales receives the revenues of the Duchy of Cornwall.”
- they have private wealth
“ThEy’Re TaX dOdGiNg PaRaSiTeS”: they pay an effective tax rate of at least 60%, which is about 60% more than anyone else with that income.
This article says the crown is tax exempt and that the dutchy of Cornwall claims this too. It states the Sovereign Grant is tax exempt, but individuals have voluntarily paid equivalent amounts.
Royal.UK says:
Taxation The King pays tax.
In 1992, Queen Elizabeth II volunteered to pay income tax and capital gains tax, and since 1993 the Monarch’s personal income has been taxable as for any other taxpayer.
His Majesty is subject to Value Added Tax and pays local rates on a voluntary basis.
And
Under the 1337 charter, as confirmed by subsequent legislation, The Prince of Wales does not own the Duchy’s capital assets, and is not entitled to the proceeds or profit on their sale, and only receives the annual income which they generate (which is voluntarily subject to income tax).
The 2024-2025 financial statement mentions that
In addition to the funding received by the Royal Household, income from the Duchy of Cornwall funds the private and official expenditure of the Prince and Princess of Wales and is taxed to the extent it is not used to meet official expenditure.
But the above states that this is voluntary. I’m not seeing anything about the 60% effective tax rate. What am I missing?
I don’t think this is true
Actually, I think the links you provide back my points up pretty well. In fact, the Wikipedia articles you linked mentions that the Sovereign Grant is “15% to 25%” of the profits of the Royal Estate, not 25% to 35% as I thought. That’s means the Government keeps 75% to 85% of their income, which is the “effective tax rate of at least 60%” I was talking about.
they own private residences… self sustaining not for profit…
Aristocrats gonna aristocrat. There isn’t a stately home in the country that doesn’t generate income from just existing. The National Trust owns a lot of them and is a charity that is broadly laudable, but most of the rest don’t burden themselves with the notion of being “non-profit”.
since 1993 the Monarch’s personal income has been taxable as for any other taxpayer
And as you mentioned, the rest of their income is taxed as if they were normal humans rather than aristocrats. It may be on a “voluntary” and incredibly malleable basis, but that’s probably because they know they’d get crucified if they didn’t and, regardless, the income from non-Crown Estate concerns is basically negligible.
Look, I’m not saying this because I am assigning some moral or ethical judgement to paying taxes but calling the set up of the Royal Estate as tax is…flawed.
That is like saying an individual who withdraws a salary from their corporation is taxed at the rate equivalent to what they didn’t withdraw.
Further,
The revenues from these hereditary possessions have been placed by the monarch at the disposition of His Majesty’s Government in exchange for relief from the responsibility to fund the Civil Government
…
In 1760, George III surrendered control over the estate’s revenues to the Treasury,[6] thus relieving him of the responsibility of paying for the costs of the civil service, defence costs, the national debt, and his own personal debts. In return, he received an annual grant known as the Civil List.
I guess the revenues don’t fully cover the cost of the government? Seems like a good deal for the monarchy vs a tax?
If you do the “getting rid” of them correctly, they definitely won’t be aristocrats anymore.
Who do you think they are? The French?
Yes, the French have palaces too, but they attract nothing like the numbers as the actual real, functioning palaces and castles actually used by a real, breathing monarchs.
Just FYI, this is incorrect, Versailles gets more visitors a year (15 million) than all British palaces combined (~2 million.)
how do you feel about the paradise papers and the queens (well kings now but at the time) private estate?
I feel the same as I do about all the other landed gentry who were also in there.
I might have a weird view of things but I don’t want to get rid of royalty, just take away any authority they have over the lives of themselves and others. They already live off others’ work. Let’s keep them as national pets.
‘Who’s a good king? Who looks nice and waves for the people?’
‘Is it me, <racial slur>?’
‘No! No talking! Bad! Smack you on the nose with a rolled up replica magna carta.’
Former monarchist here: it was nationalism. Simple as that. Bavarian nationalism.
But that stemmed from self hatred and well thats why i am no longer in the right spectrum ^^
Thank you, this makes sense. I can understand loyalty to a station as symbolic of loyalty to a nation and the sense of belonging that brings.
Glad you are feeling better.
The British Monarch isn’t really a leader any more it’s mostly ceremonial.
They look fancy and bring in money, so with bother removing them?
Because they’re parasites?
I’m not sure the argument that they bring in money via tourism is accurate. No tourist comes to see them, they come to see the Palace etc. Tourists still visit the Palace of Versailles even though there’s no monarchy in France.
I can understand this leading to a neutral or slightly positive view of the monarchy, but I’m not sure it explains people who actively support and say things like “God save the King” or have photos of them in their homes.
Unless it’s just a reflex/kitschy tradition at this point?
I think it’s just another fandom.
Some people do the same thing for Kardashians
Okay, that makes sense.
How do they bring in money?
People like to say they bring money in through tourism. How much? I don’t know, but I have to imagine the percentage of tourists who come here because of the monarchy is very small.
Tourism.
It do not bring money, it waste money
wastes money by giving people jobs?
By wasting money on the monarchy
Breaking enough windows will also create jobs. You can create so much value with just a couple rocks!
My guess? Monarchies are likely to lean conservative and uphold “tradition”.
There are many who’d love to live in a monarchy and do away with all the lib/woke/left stuff they so much despise. Throw in some disregard for the dangers of absolute power and a sprinkle of love for a “strong leader” and voilà.
I’m not monarchist. I think most of the time it ends up as a disaster. However, I’d say the appeal is training someone from birth to be a good leader. Theoretically this could still involve checks and balances.
The other benefit is that they can just get shit done instead of arguing about every little thing and special interest groups roadblocking progress at every turn. Again, this usually backfires spectacularly, but that’s the dream, to just go have a vision and fuckin’ do the thing.
Plato envisioned extending this to a ruling class/aristocracy that is intentionally not allowed to own property but instead focuses on just doing their job to benefit the city. They don’t have to campaign, they can’t reject power, so it is to their benefit to do a good job and benefit the city. There is some logic to this since any schmuck can get elected in a democracy, and money hungry oligarchs are diametrically opposed to having qualities desirable in leadership such as patriotism or caring about others in any way.
Rich dommy mommy telling me what to do.
Same appeal as religion… delusions can be, and often are, comfortable.
Specifically in regards to the British royal family, who don’t really wield much actual policy power, it seems to be more a cultural/traditional curiosity. They’re more like national mascots than anything.
In the case of actual monarchist government, I’m not a monarchist myself but in a certain sense I can understand the logic. Your leaders are trained basically from birth to be leaders, and institutional wealth and lack of elections makes them more difficult to bribe. If your monarch is a good and responsible person, the power to make sweeping improvements without slow, fiddly debates and negotiations is a big benefit.
The logic falls apart pretty quickly in reality though. Generations of isolation from the common people makes you ineffectual in the long term even if your intentions are pure. Then there’s the difficulty of dethroning a monarch whose intentions aren’t pure.
Having an inert (a-political) monarch provides a figurehead and commander of the nations military, making it less likely that coups and fascist takeover occurs because all the soldiers swear an allegiance to the king. They don’t have to agree with him, or even with monarchy, but as the big boss ultimately in command of the entire army, an allegiance to him is allegiance to protecting all your comrades and countryfolk.
The monarch is usually unlikely to collapse the country and then flee to another one with their winnings, as a prime minister might do. You could say they have commitment to it, since it’s essentially their family business. Theoretically it should be a blessing that, in a monarchy, we have leadership who actually inherit that position and are raised from birth to lead.
One reason people don’t like monarchy is because there are past case studies of it causing problems, e.g just one legitimacy crisis and civil war breaks out, or if a monarch gets to greedy they will emnroil you in war with your nearest neighbouring state for ages.
But people need to realise, it was never just the monarch in charge. There exist pressure groups, the aristocracy, the church, merchant class; these sorts of organisations have a lot of say in when a war happens and what gets done. The truth of power is oligarchy - an organised minority of the population will always be best suited to maneuveur a takeover of the rest of the popupation. It has to be larger than 1 person, though.
In my eyes, therefore, the king exists not as the leadership but as the figurehead of the organisational force of the country. For instance in the UK the civil service works for the king - this is again superior to them working for the party government, as they have more reason to be unbiased than just “please don’t do that, it wouldn’t be fair.” The monarchy is a real thing, bigger/more important than the party politics, even if less flavourful.
I wholeheartedly also believe that the British Crown provides superior organisation of our secret service/intelligence agency (nope, its not just movie-slop!) - we actually have the oldest standing secret service of any country, i believe, and it’s pretty impressive russia hasn’t completely destabilised britain yet. I would chalk that up to the crown.
The british monarchy is all of these things, but for countries across the world. It therefore has staying power. Getting rid of it isn’t merely a question of how would the people of the UK feel - it may lead to little crises across the world. It’s a big reason why the british army is called out to fight wars in african nations (they do this a lot btw)
Thanks for the response. It can see the appeal of stability, especially in the case of the BRF where they serve for long terms and they aren’t getting usurped or whatever.
I am curious about your statements about the civil service. I am in a common wealth country. I don’t work in the civil service but I thought about it for some time so I looked at the structure.
Federal civil servants are not tied to elected officials except that they report to Cabinet Ministers who are appointed by the Prime Minister.
I thought the UK was the same? From the wiki:
The Civil Service is meant to be a politically neutral body, with the function of impartially implementing the policy programme of the elected government.
My understanding of this is that this means they are to carry out the instructions of the elected government. Do you see this differently?
My understanding of this is that this means they are to carry out the instructions of the elected government. Do you see this differently?
I think that in practice they really don’t. Sabotage going on left and right. But also, in order to carry the instructions of elected governments, it’s best to have a civil service who see themselves as third party, separate, perhaps above the politicians.
i don’t see the appeal either. i like to think for myself. but i guess many people just don’t like to make decisions themselves so they defer them to someone else.











