That’s true, and I didn’t say that. I’m talking about being able to visualise something in one’s imagination, but have difficulty in translating that into reality, so others can see an approximation. I agree with the negative affects on imagination, cognitive surrender is real.
So what then for those with aphantasia? They may be able to describe something in detailed words, but not visualise it themselves at all. In that case, AI really might be able to help them express an idea.
I have aphantasia. I still draw manually; I just need a reference photo (or subject) and “modify” it as I draw. Imagine if you couldn’t remember what something looked like so you have to memorise “ok their right eye is 30% down their face and only half visible from this angle and extends 20% horizontally at about 10 degrees until it’s covered by the nose which is…” etc. Then I draw that tiny line and have to check again
Writing it out, I just realised it’s actually similar to how you would describe it to an LLM 😂. I will admit that I’m very unsuited to this skill, and it’s extremely difficult for me, but I still find it fun. Maybe because of the difficulty itself?
Actually, lately I’ve been challenging myself by using pen and doing line-art. Normally, because I fuck up so much, I do messy sketches; so it was really interesting using a medium that is so punishing. I’ve learnt with line art it’s mostly about what you don’t draw, rather than what you do, if that makes sense
I fucked around with a locally installed image generator A.I. for a while in the past ~ it was fun, but I got bored of it quickly, and it became kind of hollow
I do not have aphantasia, but a painting technique I follow could work for someone with aphantasia. It’s more about pattern-recognition than imagining something beforehand.
I pretty much start by following whims. I pick some colors and do what feels right. Only after a bit do I look again at the work and think, “Huh, that looks like an alien” or “That kind of looks like a tree,” etc. It’s kind of like making my own Rorschach test - making sense of the noise on a canvas. Then, I start accentuating the pattern I see until others can see it, too. In the end, it’s a unique piece that looks like I planned it all along.
I’m not sure if that sounds up your alley, but I figured I’d share just in case.
That’s cool, but if he was having trouble communicating a visual idea, and he wasn’t good at painting, drawing, sculpting, or digital tools, would you think less of him for using AI to help him crystallise it and show it to you?
The thing is; Our “Imagination” lies. Our brains are especially good at forming concepts that are often snippets of visual echoes and linguistic narratives but don’t form into anything concrete. In order to form a concrete visual idea you need to engage with visual concepts themselves. A character designer needs to have a grasp on human anatomy but there is design specific information like contrast and color balance, form, shape, line economy, design sense; then there is cultural information like emotional response to shape and color, particular fashion sense, cultural and environmental cues. All those are choices; a designer engages with them, interiorizes them, experiments and chooses what works best for them. Every Specific Area has different context and it’s own sense of rules.
A Good character designer might think they would have good “visual ideas” for graphic design but in reality this won’t be true until they engage with the particular context that is proper of graphic design. Since by using AI people are cutting themselves off to working with any visual concepts: (It’s all linguistic descriptions) They are cutting themselves off from making decisions that are truly visual. They are clients. Just like the clients that hire an artist that more often than not, don’t know what they want. But “think” they have an idea that is concrete in their heads. People that instead of immersing themselves in visual or cultural concepts take short hands. Reminds me of this thing of calling visual trends “punks” putting “cyberpunk”, “cloud punk” or “hope punk” in their prompts. Oversimplification. Visual stupidity.
As for aphantasia; Supposedly I have it. Back in college it was impossible for me to visualize images. And I used to heavily forget faces, places or shapes. I confuse people I already know with other people, Images just don’t stick in my head. But again. Visual education is not so much as a mental faculty but a system. I have a very particular system developed with experience and a formed visual language. So It doesn’t matter that I can’t visualize something in my head; Because I can get to any drawing pad and jot it down. Journaling is important for me. Often time I record the process I used to find a particular answer and keep them as “maps” to retrace my steps. As I developed more visually intelligence I got better at retaining images in my head. I feel my ADHD has a bit to do with it, because back when I was a kid it was difficult to find contextual cues, subtle proportional differences and cultural responses. I trained myself to get better at picking up on those over time, and my “aphantasia” feels less prominent today.
I think we’re talking about separate things, you about those who don’t fully know what they want to express, and that art comes from their attempt to express it, with the influences of their life experience, and should they offload that attempt to express a concept to AI they lose that idea (or never really knew it). I’m talking about those who do know what they want to express, visually, and regardless of the tools used, could look at the output and say with confidence ‘that’s not it’. It seems this is a bit foreign to you because you perhaps have never experienced seeing a full visual scene in your mind’s eye, and known you are unable to draw/paint it with a level of fidelity that even approaches the visualisation. I can imagine all sorts of things, see them clearly in my head, and though my drawing skills aren’t terrible, I couldn’t reproduce them well. I could describe something linguistically, but have no interest in spending time using an AI to try to express it. That doesn’t mean no people exist that have things in their heads that could be expressed via AI.
The thing Is I have seen my work being realized: through doing it. Through doing the hard work. I am not a musician but i love music, and I’ve done a couple of songs that i like by recording simple things and mixing them together. I don’t have music in my head. I experimented, did the work. Made a mess.
I think the problem is that there is people out there that has never experienced the satisfaction of creating and want a palm int heir back for not even trying! Thinking that they have fully realized ideas in their head is a great cop out for this.
That’s true, and I didn’t say that. I’m talking about being able to visualise something in one’s imagination, but have difficulty in translating that into reality, so others can see an approximation. I agree with the negative affects on imagination, cognitive surrender is real.
So what then for those with aphantasia? They may be able to describe something in detailed words, but not visualise it themselves at all. In that case, AI really might be able to help them express an idea.
I have aphantasia. I still draw manually; I just need a reference photo (or subject) and “modify” it as I draw. Imagine if you couldn’t remember what something looked like so you have to memorise “ok their right eye is 30% down their face and only half visible from this angle and extends 20% horizontally at about 10 degrees until it’s covered by the nose which is…” etc. Then I draw that tiny line and have to check again
Writing it out, I just realised it’s actually similar to how you would describe it to an LLM 😂. I will admit that I’m very unsuited to this skill, and it’s extremely difficult for me, but I still find it fun. Maybe because of the difficulty itself?
Actually, lately I’ve been challenging myself by using pen and doing line-art. Normally, because I fuck up so much, I do messy sketches; so it was really interesting using a medium that is so punishing. I’ve learnt with line art it’s mostly about what you don’t draw, rather than what you do, if that makes sense
I fucked around with a locally installed image generator A.I. for a while in the past ~ it was fun, but I got bored of it quickly, and it became kind of hollow
I do not have aphantasia, but a painting technique I follow could work for someone with aphantasia. It’s more about pattern-recognition than imagining something beforehand.
I pretty much start by following whims. I pick some colors and do what feels right. Only after a bit do I look again at the work and think, “Huh, that looks like an alien” or “That kind of looks like a tree,” etc. It’s kind of like making my own Rorschach test - making sense of the noise on a canvas. Then, I start accentuating the pattern I see until others can see it, too. In the end, it’s a unique piece that looks like I planned it all along.
I’m not sure if that sounds up your alley, but I figured I’d share just in case.
Thanks! I’ll give it a go one day
Nice! Don’t know why you got downvoted just for sharing your experience.
I remove my own upvote from my comments because I like things starting at 0
I mean one of my brothers is aphantasiac. He’s a great 12 string guitarist. He does covers, but even with practice not everyone can write music well.
That’s cool, but if he was having trouble communicating a visual idea, and he wasn’t good at painting, drawing, sculpting, or digital tools, would you think less of him for using AI to help him crystallise it and show it to you?
The thing is; Our “Imagination” lies. Our brains are especially good at forming concepts that are often snippets of visual echoes and linguistic narratives but don’t form into anything concrete. In order to form a concrete visual idea you need to engage with visual concepts themselves. A character designer needs to have a grasp on human anatomy but there is design specific information like contrast and color balance, form, shape, line economy, design sense; then there is cultural information like emotional response to shape and color, particular fashion sense, cultural and environmental cues. All those are choices; a designer engages with them, interiorizes them, experiments and chooses what works best for them. Every Specific Area has different context and it’s own sense of rules.
A Good character designer might think they would have good “visual ideas” for graphic design but in reality this won’t be true until they engage with the particular context that is proper of graphic design. Since by using AI people are cutting themselves off to working with any visual concepts: (It’s all linguistic descriptions) They are cutting themselves off from making decisions that are truly visual. They are clients. Just like the clients that hire an artist that more often than not, don’t know what they want. But “think” they have an idea that is concrete in their heads. People that instead of immersing themselves in visual or cultural concepts take short hands. Reminds me of this thing of calling visual trends “punks” putting “cyberpunk”, “cloud punk” or “hope punk” in their prompts. Oversimplification. Visual stupidity.
As for aphantasia; Supposedly I have it. Back in college it was impossible for me to visualize images. And I used to heavily forget faces, places or shapes. I confuse people I already know with other people, Images just don’t stick in my head. But again. Visual education is not so much as a mental faculty but a system. I have a very particular system developed with experience and a formed visual language. So It doesn’t matter that I can’t visualize something in my head; Because I can get to any drawing pad and jot it down. Journaling is important for me. Often time I record the process I used to find a particular answer and keep them as “maps” to retrace my steps. As I developed more visually intelligence I got better at retaining images in my head. I feel my ADHD has a bit to do with it, because back when I was a kid it was difficult to find contextual cues, subtle proportional differences and cultural responses. I trained myself to get better at picking up on those over time, and my “aphantasia” feels less prominent today.
I think we’re talking about separate things, you about those who don’t fully know what they want to express, and that art comes from their attempt to express it, with the influences of their life experience, and should they offload that attempt to express a concept to AI they lose that idea (or never really knew it). I’m talking about those who do know what they want to express, visually, and regardless of the tools used, could look at the output and say with confidence ‘that’s not it’. It seems this is a bit foreign to you because you perhaps have never experienced seeing a full visual scene in your mind’s eye, and known you are unable to draw/paint it with a level of fidelity that even approaches the visualisation. I can imagine all sorts of things, see them clearly in my head, and though my drawing skills aren’t terrible, I couldn’t reproduce them well. I could describe something linguistically, but have no interest in spending time using an AI to try to express it. That doesn’t mean no people exist that have things in their heads that could be expressed via AI.
The thing Is I have seen my work being realized: through doing it. Through doing the hard work. I am not a musician but i love music, and I’ve done a couple of songs that i like by recording simple things and mixing them together. I don’t have music in my head. I experimented, did the work. Made a mess.
I think the problem is that there is people out there that has never experienced the satisfaction of creating and want a palm int heir back for not even trying! Thinking that they have fully realized ideas in their head is a great cop out for this.
Yes, we’re most certainly talking about different things.