People in here acting like authoritarianism is somehow inherent to conservatives but not to progressives. Authoritarianism is a problem. Conservativism is a relative political position, meaning there will always be conservatives on one side of the Overton window, wherever it currently resides.
I agree with both of your points, but it seems that many people in here do not agree that progressives can be authoritarian. A ridiculous and potentially even dangerous concept in my opinion.
Imma be real with you, your messaging and vibe sounds like you’re worried about something like you see youtubers screaming about, like “woke” becoming law and having to call people by the right pronoun or go to jail. The only other people to use “authoritarian left” are usually terrible right-wing grifters and so-called centrists that use any opportunity to attack efforts by progressives.
So if you wanted to make your messaging connect better you need to be a lot more specific without being afraid to have a clear and tangible idea in your mind what exactly you’re talking about.
People always want to put me into one of the categories, give me a label, but I don’t really see the need for that. I’m not trying to be on a “team”, I’m just having a discussion. So many interactions on the internet (and politics in general) become a game of identifying which group you belong to and then saying either amen or completely ignoring the ideas or nuance that I enjoy discussing. It’s unfortunately rare to find a good discussion since most people are here to circle jerk about this or that. I think the most important thing is to maintain open discourse so we can freely exchange ideas and learn. That’s what I enjoy on lemmy, the only reason I’m here. Circle jerks are tiresome, boring, and only stoke anger, sow more discord between people, and make real progress harder. They contribute to making our political environment a zero sum game when it doesn’t need to be.
Everyone knows political discourse is really toxic, that’s why when you’re imprecise and hand-wavy about issues people will assume what your position actually is.
You mean it’s confusing if I use examples that aren’t consistent with a single political ideology? That’s exactly the point. My position is simply that Authoritarianism is not limited to a single political ideology, that it can come from either side. That’s it. That’s my position. You can call out conservatives for some bad things and progressives for other bad things, and both of them for authoritarianism if they do it.
That’s on them if they want to assume a motive beyond what I’m actually saying. But if you want an example of left wing authoritarianism, then I would start with the Chinese cultural revolution.
Thought you were going to make a point about tankies and the worship of self-described socialist dictators, but then you dropped that idea and just went off about the overton window and that kinda pulled your comment in two different directions and that’s probably as much a reason for it not doing well as the fact that like… nobody asked. We know authoritarians exist, but this particular POST is about right-wing conservatism.
Read through some of the other comments and it’s not so clear that people believe that progressives can be authoritarian. My point is to separate the two concepts. Authoritarianism is one concept and conservatism is a separate one. You CAN have both at the same time, but conservatism also exists without Authoritarianism, just like progressivism can be authoritarian.
Eh, depends on what you mean by “conservative” and “progressive”.
Authoritarianism is the defining characteristic of the right. The right consolidates wealth and power. The left is egalitarian, and is focused on ensuring that wealth and power is shared more evenly. There is no such thing as “auth left”.
If you use “conservative” as a synonym for the right and progressive as a synonym for the left, then there is no such thing as “auth progressive” - you are just using incorrect terminology to talk about different flavors of rightism.
Now if you mean “conservative” as “resistant to change” and “progressive” as “advocates of change” then that’s a completely different thing… but the language is STILL messy, because many who call themselves “conservative” are actually advocates of change in favor or more authoritarianism while those who call themselves “progressive” are also advocates of change, but generally in a leftward anti-authoritarian direction… which once again leads us to “auth progressive” being a contradiction.
Auth left is when progressives are willing to force their ideals on others, whether those ideals are social or fiscal. Forcing people to conform to your ideology is not a trait inherent to either side of the political aisle. For instance, the cultural revolution was a progressive authoritarian movement where wealth and power was stripped by force from people. If you really wanted to, you could make an argument about whether that was justified or not, but no matter how you spin it, it’s authoritarian.
Correct. Rightism is authoritarian. You keep describing rightism while trying attribute it to the left. This is usually the result of blindly accepting Tankie (extreme right) propaganda without taking the time to consider the actual definitions and requirements of leftism and leftist terminology.
Authoritarian: “favoring or enforcing strict obedience to authority, especially that of the government, at the expense of personal freedom.”
So freedom and tolerance is the opposite of authoritarianism. And yes, the paradox of tolerance means that it doesn’t work to be completely tolerant because then the intolerant will eliminate or overrule the tolerant.
The conclusion from this is that some level of authoritarianism is required to enforce some level of freedom, which are inherently conflicting. That’s why it’s a paradox.
So are you saying that use of force, when justified by the paradox of intolerance, is not right wing? Or are you saying that even progressive movements have elements of rightism?
No. By your own listed definition, authority and authoritarian are different terms. You can have an authority without authoritarianism. You are conflating terminology, and I’m starting to suspect you are doing so in bad faith to perpetuate the tiresome “both sides” fallacy.
I am an authroity in electrocuting myself with car batteries, I can say with perfect authority backed by experience that it hurts like a motherfucker. Wheres the fucken authoritarianism in that statement, sure theres some amount of absolutism in that I am assuming that everyone or atleast most people find electrocution of that type painful. But thats why we have peer review and consensus, get a couple other dumbfucks who arced their car batteries and we’ll find what the consensus is.
Authority is fully seperated from authoritarianism, they simply share a vague as fuck root concept.
I cannot figure out what that user is on about or what they are trying to warn against, I have read all their comments and it’s just a lot of weird hand-wavy vibes, I am like 90% sure they’re some kind of anti-woke-head trying to seed the idea that equality is the same as tyranny or some nonsense that people get hung up on obsessively.
I’m referring to someone having Authority to uphold laws and issue punishment for not following them. Authority in the context I intended is synonymous with power rather than expertise as in your example.
People in here acting like authoritarianism is somehow inherent to conservatives but not to progressives. Authoritarianism is a problem. Conservativism is a relative political position, meaning there will always be conservatives on one side of the Overton window, wherever it currently resides.
Both conservatives and progressives can be authoritarian. Fascism though is by definition right wing.
I agree with both of your points, but it seems that many people in here do not agree that progressives can be authoritarian. A ridiculous and potentially even dangerous concept in my opinion.
Imma be real with you, your messaging and vibe sounds like you’re worried about something like you see youtubers screaming about, like “woke” becoming law and having to call people by the right pronoun or go to jail. The only other people to use “authoritarian left” are usually terrible right-wing grifters and so-called centrists that use any opportunity to attack efforts by progressives.
So if you wanted to make your messaging connect better you need to be a lot more specific without being afraid to have a clear and tangible idea in your mind what exactly you’re talking about.
People always want to put me into one of the categories, give me a label, but I don’t really see the need for that. I’m not trying to be on a “team”, I’m just having a discussion. So many interactions on the internet (and politics in general) become a game of identifying which group you belong to and then saying either amen or completely ignoring the ideas or nuance that I enjoy discussing. It’s unfortunately rare to find a good discussion since most people are here to circle jerk about this or that. I think the most important thing is to maintain open discourse so we can freely exchange ideas and learn. That’s what I enjoy on lemmy, the only reason I’m here. Circle jerks are tiresome, boring, and only stoke anger, sow more discord between people, and make real progress harder. They contribute to making our political environment a zero sum game when it doesn’t need to be.
Everyone knows political discourse is really toxic, that’s why when you’re imprecise and hand-wavy about issues people will assume what your position actually is.
You mean it’s confusing if I use examples that aren’t consistent with a single political ideology? That’s exactly the point. My position is simply that Authoritarianism is not limited to a single political ideology, that it can come from either side. That’s it. That’s my position. You can call out conservatives for some bad things and progressives for other bad things, and both of them for authoritarianism if they do it.
Then give some damn examples, otherwise you’re just saying stuff and leaving room for people to ASSUME what you’re trying to say.
That’s on them if they want to assume a motive beyond what I’m actually saying. But if you want an example of left wing authoritarianism, then I would start with the Chinese cultural revolution.
Thought you were going to make a point about tankies and the worship of self-described socialist dictators, but then you dropped that idea and just went off about the overton window and that kinda pulled your comment in two different directions and that’s probably as much a reason for it not doing well as the fact that like… nobody asked. We know authoritarians exist, but this particular POST is about right-wing conservatism.
Read through some of the other comments and it’s not so clear that people believe that progressives can be authoritarian. My point is to separate the two concepts. Authoritarianism is one concept and conservatism is a separate one. You CAN have both at the same time, but conservatism also exists without Authoritarianism, just like progressivism can be authoritarian.
Eh, depends on what you mean by “conservative” and “progressive”.
Authoritarianism is the defining characteristic of the right. The right consolidates wealth and power. The left is egalitarian, and is focused on ensuring that wealth and power is shared more evenly. There is no such thing as “auth left”.
If you use “conservative” as a synonym for the right and progressive as a synonym for the left, then there is no such thing as “auth progressive” - you are just using incorrect terminology to talk about different flavors of rightism.
Now if you mean “conservative” as “resistant to change” and “progressive” as “advocates of change” then that’s a completely different thing… but the language is STILL messy, because many who call themselves “conservative” are actually advocates of change in favor or more authoritarianism while those who call themselves “progressive” are also advocates of change, but generally in a leftward anti-authoritarian direction… which once again leads us to “auth progressive” being a contradiction.
Auth left is when progressives are willing to force their ideals on others, whether those ideals are social or fiscal. Forcing people to conform to your ideology is not a trait inherent to either side of the political aisle. For instance, the cultural revolution was a progressive authoritarian movement where wealth and power was stripped by force from people. If you really wanted to, you could make an argument about whether that was justified or not, but no matter how you spin it, it’s authoritarian.
No, that is not how any of that works. See the tolerance paradox.
…was rightist.
Correct. Rightism is authoritarian. You keep describing rightism while trying attribute it to the left. This is usually the result of blindly accepting Tankie (extreme right) propaganda without taking the time to consider the actual definitions and requirements of leftism and leftist terminology.
Authoritarian: “favoring or enforcing strict obedience to authority, especially that of the government, at the expense of personal freedom.”
So freedom and tolerance is the opposite of authoritarianism. And yes, the paradox of tolerance means that it doesn’t work to be completely tolerant because then the intolerant will eliminate or overrule the tolerant.
The conclusion from this is that some level of authoritarianism is required to enforce some level of freedom, which are inherently conflicting. That’s why it’s a paradox.
So are you saying that use of force, when justified by the paradox of intolerance, is not right wing? Or are you saying that even progressive movements have elements of rightism?
No. By your own listed definition, authority and authoritarian are different terms. You can have an authority without authoritarianism. You are conflating terminology, and I’m starting to suspect you are doing so in bad faith to perpetuate the tiresome “both sides” fallacy.
You can’t have an authority without some level of authoritarianism.
I am an authroity in electrocuting myself with car batteries, I can say with perfect authority backed by experience that it hurts like a motherfucker. Wheres the fucken authoritarianism in that statement, sure theres some amount of absolutism in that I am assuming that everyone or atleast most people find electrocution of that type painful. But thats why we have peer review and consensus, get a couple other dumbfucks who arced their car batteries and we’ll find what the consensus is.
Authority is fully seperated from authoritarianism, they simply share a vague as fuck root concept.
I cannot figure out what that user is on about or what they are trying to warn against, I have read all their comments and it’s just a lot of weird hand-wavy vibes, I am like 90% sure they’re some kind of anti-woke-head trying to seed the idea that equality is the same as tyranny or some nonsense that people get hung up on obsessively.
I’m referring to someone having Authority to uphold laws and issue punishment for not following them. Authority in the context I intended is synonymous with power rather than expertise as in your example.