You said that you don’t know for sure if it’s matter or consciousness that comes first but everything you’re saying hinges on you very firmly believing that matter is prior.
If you had genuine uncertainty about it, you would be much more careful about how you go about asking for proof. If you weren’t sure that matter is prior, it would occur to you to question what “objective” and “subjective” means. I could also ask you, can you step outside consciousness and objectively prove to me that your matter exists? If not, why do you value objective over subjective so much?
So to round back to your initial question: you can intellectually acknowledge the difficulty of proving matter vs. consciousness, yet if we probe it, clearly you hold a firm belief about it despite not being able to rationally prove your belief. So you can ask your initial question from yourself now. Despite your reasoning skill, why aren’t you more skeptical about the materialist view AND it’s implications?
Can you point out what specifically makes you think I believe that? If it will clear things up I will give you my opinion about the subject outright, I would say it depends on whether there is a creator or not, does this creator have a physical form, where did they come from, what allows them to create life, and many more questions. This question can’t be answered with our knowledge and it is built on other unanswerable concepts so any answer is just a guess.
Could you explain what that has to do with understanding objective and subjective means? I cannot prove to you that anything exists, I can’t even prove to you that we live in the same reality, or that you are a sentient being and not a figment of my imagination. “I think, therefore I am”, I can observe my reality but I can neither prove my existence nor confirm my observations are correct. The only conclusion that leaves me with is, I know that I don’t know.
I don’t value objectivity over subjectivity unless we’re talking about logic because logic is about overcoming subjective beliefs to find the objective truth, so it should follow that I hold your logic to the rigidity that it’s defined by no?
And again, you are making assumptions about me with no truth behind them.
Every time you’re challenged on your beliefs, you claim to not know, but when you’re challenging other people’s beliefs you use words like “irrational” and “illogical”.
You don’t behave like someone who is calmly on the fence at all.
I worry that your debating position and your actual beliefs are out of alignment and I’m not sure whether you’re misleading us or yourself.
They are just trying to align everything that’s being said to their previously held beliefs. People aren’t typically all that aware of what their core beliefs are because an alternative, challenging core belief would have to breach all the way into it for it them to realize they have one. Without the salient contrast, they just don’t notice it’s there. It’s just blue against a blue background, and unless a yellow comes along, they’re not going to realize there’s anything there. The materialistic worldview is so prevalent that a random online conversation isn’t likely to get through, no matter how well argued. I’ve had similar discussions many times and sooner or later people just kind of “reset” and I find myself having to say the same things again and again because there’s just this impenetrable thought loop going on. Logic doesn’t breach it, it’s just that they keep asking for all the different ways we can reach the number 42. If I tell them 41+1=42, they ask again and I have to try to explain how 40+2 is also 42, and so on ad nauseum. “Hahaa, but there’s a 33-4347+132562+767368, I bet you can’t do anything to get that to 42”. That can be done all day. If the person isn’t truly open for new ways to think (and few people in these type of settings are), as in they aren’t actively looking for it with an open curiosity, it’s not likely they’ll realize much during that convo.
It’s really, really, natural and normal. I just thought it was funny because OP is behaving the exact same way they’re asking about in their initial post. They’ll probably eventually figure it out.
If I don’t know something then im going to say I don’t know, am I supposed to make up an answer? I call it irrational and illogical to be confident in something noone can know, which is the opposite of my stance.
What exactly are you reading as “not calm”? I’ve talked nothing but logic, no emotion involved in this at all yet the other guy is taking leaps and bounds to make assumptions of me that have all been incorrect guesses.
What exactly is it that confuses you so I can clear it up?
You present yourself as an agnostic but are very one sided in the debate, and you only have criticism for religious people. If you’re going to use words like irrational and illogical for religious beliefs, at least have the intellectual honesty that your position is far more atheist than you’re admitting to us or yourself. It’s not nuanced or balanced at all.
You really don’t need to go far to find proof that what you just said was false. I said people who claim with certainty that matter came before conciousness are as unintelligent as someone claiming they know what happens in the afterlife.
Sure, and Trump claims to respect women equally and has no qualms promoting women, but his contempt for them leaks out and the overall picture is starkly clear.
Maybe you don’t realise that normal people consider words like “illogical”, “irrational” and “unintelligent” pejorative.
Your behaviour is very like the people on here before the election spending at their time explaining why the Democrats are terrible and people shouldn’t vote for them, but when challenged, claimed that they didn’t support Trump at all. It was never clear whether they were lying to others or themselves
You’re being condescendingly dismissive about other people’s beliefs, overwhelmingly about religious beliefs, and I begin to think that you yourself believe that agnostism is the most defensible intellectual position, so you adopt it in theory, but you use it mainly to belittle religious viewpoints. I think emotionally and in behaviour you’re an atheist, but you’re not prepared to admit it to yourself because your intellectual heroes are agnostic and you look down on staunchly atheistic people, despite behaving like one online.
Ah I see what the problem is, you think you know me and you’ve created an entire personality based on things I never said. Then when I give you proof of your false accusations you try to paint me as a villain that is harassing all religious people even though I haven’t. Ad hominem. Have a good night buddy
Would it help you if we called it anti-theistic rather than atheistic? Regarding your overwhelmingly anti-theistic perspective, there’s a difference between belief and proof that you’re ignoring - you can’t prove your atheism and you disrespect people who believe things without proof, so you deny your atheism.
But you believe lots of things without proof. It’s how we go about our daily lives. It’s normal. You don’t get your spectrometer out so that you don’t inadvertently believe without proof that the skirt is blue despite knowing full well that you are vulnerable to optical illusions, and you don’t have to have proof that the creepy guy is a creep to avoid him. This is normal. This is how we evolved to learn about the world.
I think the reason that I’ve upset you is that I’ve caused you cognitive dissonance, because I assert that you believe atheism without proof and it seriously challenges your self image because the one argument you used against religion all the time was that believing things without proof is illogical, irrational and unintelligent, and whilst you’re happy to claim that you mean that in the nicest, most neutral, inoffensive and non-insulting way, you don’t half react badly when I put you at the receiving end of your own criticism.
If you really in your heart truly believed that atheism and religious belief both have equal merit and there’s no rational way to decide between them, you wouldn’t spend the whole day inviting religious folk to explain to you why they’re so irrational, illogical and unintelligent when it comes to religion. You have an opinion, and it’s very strongly held, but you never admit it, because it’s not as logical as claiming there’s no answer and you so very strongly want to believe that you’re logical and rational. But I want you to accept yourself as you really are, a bunch of flesh and blood, leaping to conclusions every day on everything based on flimsy evidence and little logical deduction, controlled by emotions and flooded with hormones all day long. We all are. It’s ok. We evolved to have gut feelings for our own protection. You believe atheism but you assert agnostism intellectually. You dismiss the evidence of your own behaviour and attitudes to keep up the self pretence that you drew beliefs are exclusively deduced logically from cast iron evidence, but that’s just not how humans decide things that they care about at all. It’s how they solve maths problems, not how they decide how to treat each other on social media.
I think you really need to come to terms with the fact that you’re fundamentally human and accept that you have some beliefs you can’t prove, like everyone does.
Remember that you believe in the supremacy of science because your parents and teachers taught you to and told you stories of the empirical method’s victory over philosophy for making accurate predictions, not because you preformed some grand comparative experimental study of different philosophies yourself. We believe what we believe because it seems right to us, and we so very very very rarely get out the tape measure and national statistics when we think someone is unusually tall. It’s ok to have things you believe that you didn’t prove, it’s not ok to believe that you prove everything that you think is true; you wouldn’t even be able to have breakfast before it was too late if you did.
No, I don’t know you at all, all I’ve got to go on is the way you’re behaving in this thread.
If you think that calling people “illogical”, “irrational” and “unintelligent” isn’t condescending and dismissive, your social awareness is extremely low, and I also think your self awareness about your own beliefs is rather low.
You like to assert that you are balanced, but you also like to spend all day calling religious folk unintelligent, illogical and irrational.
Your “have a good night buddy” is as utterly unconvincing as your neutrality.
You said that you don’t know for sure if it’s matter or consciousness that comes first but everything you’re saying hinges on you very firmly believing that matter is prior.
If you had genuine uncertainty about it, you would be much more careful about how you go about asking for proof. If you weren’t sure that matter is prior, it would occur to you to question what “objective” and “subjective” means. I could also ask you, can you step outside consciousness and objectively prove to me that your matter exists? If not, why do you value objective over subjective so much?
So to round back to your initial question: you can intellectually acknowledge the difficulty of proving matter vs. consciousness, yet if we probe it, clearly you hold a firm belief about it despite not being able to rationally prove your belief. So you can ask your initial question from yourself now. Despite your reasoning skill, why aren’t you more skeptical about the materialist view AND it’s implications?
Can you point out what specifically makes you think I believe that? If it will clear things up I will give you my opinion about the subject outright, I would say it depends on whether there is a creator or not, does this creator have a physical form, where did they come from, what allows them to create life, and many more questions. This question can’t be answered with our knowledge and it is built on other unanswerable concepts so any answer is just a guess.
Could you explain what that has to do with understanding objective and subjective means? I cannot prove to you that anything exists, I can’t even prove to you that we live in the same reality, or that you are a sentient being and not a figment of my imagination. “I think, therefore I am”, I can observe my reality but I can neither prove my existence nor confirm my observations are correct. The only conclusion that leaves me with is, I know that I don’t know.
I don’t value objectivity over subjectivity unless we’re talking about logic because logic is about overcoming subjective beliefs to find the objective truth, so it should follow that I hold your logic to the rigidity that it’s defined by no?
And again, you are making assumptions about me with no truth behind them.
Every time you’re challenged on your beliefs, you claim to not know, but when you’re challenging other people’s beliefs you use words like “irrational” and “illogical”.
You don’t behave like someone who is calmly on the fence at all.
I worry that your debating position and your actual beliefs are out of alignment and I’m not sure whether you’re misleading us or yourself.
They are just trying to align everything that’s being said to their previously held beliefs. People aren’t typically all that aware of what their core beliefs are because an alternative, challenging core belief would have to breach all the way into it for it them to realize they have one. Without the salient contrast, they just don’t notice it’s there. It’s just blue against a blue background, and unless a yellow comes along, they’re not going to realize there’s anything there. The materialistic worldview is so prevalent that a random online conversation isn’t likely to get through, no matter how well argued. I’ve had similar discussions many times and sooner or later people just kind of “reset” and I find myself having to say the same things again and again because there’s just this impenetrable thought loop going on. Logic doesn’t breach it, it’s just that they keep asking for all the different ways we can reach the number 42. If I tell them 41+1=42, they ask again and I have to try to explain how 40+2 is also 42, and so on ad nauseum. “Hahaa, but there’s a 33-4347+132562+767368, I bet you can’t do anything to get that to 42”. That can be done all day. If the person isn’t truly open for new ways to think (and few people in these type of settings are), as in they aren’t actively looking for it with an open curiosity, it’s not likely they’ll realize much during that convo.
It’s really, really, natural and normal. I just thought it was funny because OP is behaving the exact same way they’re asking about in their initial post. They’ll probably eventually figure it out.
If I don’t know something then im going to say I don’t know, am I supposed to make up an answer? I call it irrational and illogical to be confident in something noone can know, which is the opposite of my stance.
What exactly are you reading as “not calm”? I’ve talked nothing but logic, no emotion involved in this at all yet the other guy is taking leaps and bounds to make assumptions of me that have all been incorrect guesses.
What exactly is it that confuses you so I can clear it up?
You present yourself as an agnostic but are very one sided in the debate, and you only have criticism for religious people. If you’re going to use words like irrational and illogical for religious beliefs, at least have the intellectual honesty that your position is far more atheist than you’re admitting to us or yourself. It’s not nuanced or balanced at all.
You really don’t need to go far to find proof that what you just said was false. I said people who claim with certainty that matter came before conciousness are as unintelligent as someone claiming they know what happens in the afterlife.
Sure, and Trump claims to respect women equally and has no qualms promoting women, but his contempt for them leaks out and the overall picture is starkly clear.
Maybe you don’t realise that normal people consider words like “illogical”, “irrational” and “unintelligent” pejorative.
Your behaviour is very like the people on here before the election spending at their time explaining why the Democrats are terrible and people shouldn’t vote for them, but when challenged, claimed that they didn’t support Trump at all. It was never clear whether they were lying to others or themselves
You’re being condescendingly dismissive about other people’s beliefs, overwhelmingly about religious beliefs, and I begin to think that you yourself believe that agnostism is the most defensible intellectual position, so you adopt it in theory, but you use it mainly to belittle religious viewpoints. I think emotionally and in behaviour you’re an atheist, but you’re not prepared to admit it to yourself because your intellectual heroes are agnostic and you look down on staunchly atheistic people, despite behaving like one online.
Give in. It’s 2025. Be yourself.
Ah I see what the problem is, you think you know me and you’ve created an entire personality based on things I never said. Then when I give you proof of your false accusations you try to paint me as a villain that is harassing all religious people even though I haven’t. Ad hominem. Have a good night buddy
Would it help you if we called it anti-theistic rather than atheistic? Regarding your overwhelmingly anti-theistic perspective, there’s a difference between belief and proof that you’re ignoring - you can’t prove your atheism and you disrespect people who believe things without proof, so you deny your atheism.
But you believe lots of things without proof. It’s how we go about our daily lives. It’s normal. You don’t get your spectrometer out so that you don’t inadvertently believe without proof that the skirt is blue despite knowing full well that you are vulnerable to optical illusions, and you don’t have to have proof that the creepy guy is a creep to avoid him. This is normal. This is how we evolved to learn about the world.
I think the reason that I’ve upset you is that I’ve caused you cognitive dissonance, because I assert that you believe atheism without proof and it seriously challenges your self image because the one argument you used against religion all the time was that believing things without proof is illogical, irrational and unintelligent, and whilst you’re happy to claim that you mean that in the nicest, most neutral, inoffensive and non-insulting way, you don’t half react badly when I put you at the receiving end of your own criticism.
If you really in your heart truly believed that atheism and religious belief both have equal merit and there’s no rational way to decide between them, you wouldn’t spend the whole day inviting religious folk to explain to you why they’re so irrational, illogical and unintelligent when it comes to religion. You have an opinion, and it’s very strongly held, but you never admit it, because it’s not as logical as claiming there’s no answer and you so very strongly want to believe that you’re logical and rational. But I want you to accept yourself as you really are, a bunch of flesh and blood, leaping to conclusions every day on everything based on flimsy evidence and little logical deduction, controlled by emotions and flooded with hormones all day long. We all are. It’s ok. We evolved to have gut feelings for our own protection. You believe atheism but you assert agnostism intellectually. You dismiss the evidence of your own behaviour and attitudes to keep up the self pretence that you drew beliefs are exclusively deduced logically from cast iron evidence, but that’s just not how humans decide things that they care about at all. It’s how they solve maths problems, not how they decide how to treat each other on social media.
I think you really need to come to terms with the fact that you’re fundamentally human and accept that you have some beliefs you can’t prove, like everyone does.
Remember that you believe in the supremacy of science because your parents and teachers taught you to and told you stories of the empirical method’s victory over philosophy for making accurate predictions, not because you preformed some grand comparative experimental study of different philosophies yourself. We believe what we believe because it seems right to us, and we so very very very rarely get out the tape measure and national statistics when we think someone is unusually tall. It’s ok to have things you believe that you didn’t prove, it’s not ok to believe that you prove everything that you think is true; you wouldn’t even be able to have breakfast before it was too late if you did.
No, I don’t know you at all, all I’ve got to go on is the way you’re behaving in this thread.
If you think that calling people “illogical”, “irrational” and “unintelligent” isn’t condescending and dismissive, your social awareness is extremely low, and I also think your self awareness about your own beliefs is rather low.
You like to assert that you are balanced, but you also like to spend all day calling religious folk unintelligent, illogical and irrational.
Your “have a good night buddy” is as utterly unconvincing as your neutrality.