I dont want to drink water from govt owned companies because at that point it truly is authoritarian simply because the govt has way too much power over your life
Been drinking tap water straight from government-owned companies for decades. Taste is okay (a bit hard for geological reasons), but it couldn’t be healthier.
Still, though, you’re right that the question of the state not owning everything is a very serious one that needs to be addressed.
What are your thoughts on cooperatives, libertarian socialism, or anarchist communism?
My government owned power utility is selling me the cheapest electricity of all the OECD, and still turning a profit that’s returned in the government’s coffers to invest in research and social services. It’s awful!
What I don’t like isn’t the fact that the profits of the service aren’t going to shareholders, but because it gives the govt more power over you. This is fine if you trust the govt, but at some point there is an extreme of trusting the govt with too much. like I wouldn’t want the chinese govt controlling my finances
edit: why tf am I being downvoted? if you disagree with me then reply.
how about you tell me right now what a shareholder is because it really seems like you don’t know
the shareholders only care about themselves, but the system that they collectively create through mutual competition and distrust for each other provides (ideally) cheap and (ideally) high quality products for the costumer. Why isn’t this the case irl? Not enough competition, which the govt can safely encourage with antitrust laws.
Shareholders take their cut from the Profit side. Under the capitalistic owner-worker relationship, workers take their cut from the Cost portion. Customers want to minimize the price.
The shareholders and the workers are directly in conflict, and the shareholders are the only ones who get to appoint the board of directors. Shareholders want to maximize Profit, which means they want Price to be as high as the market can bear, and Cost (including workers wages) to be as low as the market can bear.
This directly, mathematically, incentivizes shareholders make things worse for workers and customers, and then roll those profits into the next business venture. Clever lawyers can justify their Cost by saving bigger Costs, as can lobbyists. Heck, if you’re clever enough you can get legislation drafted to specifically target your competitors. Every antitrust law just invents a new fun little puzzle for clever lawyers.
The difference between a government and a company, is that I can vote out the greedy people in my government. I can’t vote out greedy shareholders. Both will eventually become corrupt, but only one is built with countermeasures.
No, you don’t. “Vote with your dollars” does not count. So long as some people have more money than others, that gives some people more vote.
then make better laws
Then better lawyers, repeat ad infinitum. There’s no such thing as a perfect law, there’s always some loopholes. If you can’t lobby your way around it, that is.
Have you looked at the news in the last few months??? Voting doesn’t work as nicely as you would like it think it does
Certainly. But it’s even worse when it comes to private companies. As weak as the countermeasures baked into government are, they’re ironclad compared to the countermeasures in capitalism.
No system is perfect. The goal is to find one that’s least bad.
its a weighted vote based on how much money you are willing to spend. If you want a larger impact orginize a boycott
Then better lawyers, repeat ad infinitum. There’s no such thing as a perfect law, there’s always some loopholes. If you can’t lobby your way around it, that is.
Then if they get better lawyers you make better law. There are several examples of an eternal cat and mouse chase in the modern world
No system is perfect. The goal is to find one that’s least bad.
I want to own my own things and I want to own whatever factories I spent money constructing. My personal property. And to stop me from abusing my workers or whatever there can be laws that stop me
I think a major problem with decentralizing too much is that basic goods that the modern world needs, like artificial fertilizers and computer chips cant be produced or if they can be produced they cant be made in large quantities. What I understand anarchist communism to be is many small communities of people that collectively grow their own food and make their own medicines, without much large scale trade. With libertarian socialism and cooperatives there’s still the issues that if the workers own the factories they aren’t going to be incentivized to take risks with the company, the average worker has no idea about macro-economics and how to run the business, and they also wont want to lower their wages if its necessary (like if the company is doing poorly or if there needs to be additional financial motivation for low preforming workers - obviously that can get out of hand but some of it makes sense). To somewhat even out the wealth gap I think higher taxes on the wealthy and more rights for unions is pretty much all that is needed.
To somewhat even out the wealth gap I think higher taxes on the wealthy and more rights for unions is pretty much all that is needed.
I’m sure if we asked the billionaires and their paid-for politicians nicely, they’ll start writing and enforcing laws that’ll tax them more and give more rights to unions.
Been drinking tap water straight from government-owned companies for decades. Taste is okay (a bit hard for geological reasons), but it couldn’t be healthier.
Still, though, you’re right that the question of the state not owning everything is a very serious one that needs to be addressed.
What are your thoughts on cooperatives, libertarian socialism, or anarchist communism?
My government owned power utility is selling me the cheapest electricity of all the OECD, and still turning a profit that’s returned in the government’s coffers to invest in research and social services. It’s awful!
What I don’t like isn’t the fact that the profits of the service aren’t going to shareholders, but because it gives the govt more power over you. This is fine if you trust the govt, but at some point there is an extreme of trusting the govt with too much. like I wouldn’t want the chinese govt controlling my finances
edit: why tf am I being downvoted? if you disagree with me then reply.
Yeah you’re right, the shareholders really have my best interests at heart!
Thankfully in this case I AM THE SHAREHOLDER.
what is a shareholder
no ur not 🤦
your government is
how about you tell me right now what a shareholder is because it really seems like you don’t know
the shareholders only care about themselves, but the system that they collectively create through mutual competition and distrust for each other provides (ideally) cheap and (ideally) high quality products for the costumer. Why isn’t this the case irl? Not enough competition, which the govt can safely encourage with antitrust laws.
Price - Cost = Profit
Shareholders take their cut from the Profit side. Under the capitalistic owner-worker relationship, workers take their cut from the Cost portion. Customers want to minimize the price.
The shareholders and the workers are directly in conflict, and the shareholders are the only ones who get to appoint the board of directors. Shareholders want to maximize Profit, which means they want Price to be as high as the market can bear, and Cost (including workers wages) to be as low as the market can bear.
This directly, mathematically, incentivizes shareholders make things worse for workers and customers, and then roll those profits into the next business venture. Clever lawyers can justify their Cost by saving bigger Costs, as can lobbyists. Heck, if you’re clever enough you can get legislation drafted to specifically target your competitors. Every antitrust law just invents a new fun little puzzle for clever lawyers.
The difference between a government and a company, is that I can vote out the greedy people in my government. I can’t vote out greedy shareholders. Both will eventually become corrupt, but only one is built with countermeasures.
you do it by boycotting them
then make better laws
No? Have you looked at the news in the last few months??? Voting doesn’t work as nicely as you would like it think it does
No, you don’t. “Vote with your dollars” does not count. So long as some people have more money than others, that gives some people more vote.
Then better lawyers, repeat ad infinitum. There’s no such thing as a perfect law, there’s always some loopholes. If you can’t lobby your way around it, that is.
Certainly. But it’s even worse when it comes to private companies. As weak as the countermeasures baked into government are, they’re ironclad compared to the countermeasures in capitalism.
No system is perfect. The goal is to find one that’s least bad.
its a weighted vote based on how much money you are willing to spend. If you want a larger impact orginize a boycott
Then if they get better lawyers you make better law. There are several examples of an eternal cat and mouse chase in the modern world
I want to own my own things and I want to own whatever factories I spent money constructing. My personal property. And to stop me from abusing my workers or whatever there can be laws that stop me
I think a major problem with decentralizing too much is that basic goods that the modern world needs, like artificial fertilizers and computer chips cant be produced or if they can be produced they cant be made in large quantities. What I understand anarchist communism to be is many small communities of people that collectively grow their own food and make their own medicines, without much large scale trade. With libertarian socialism and cooperatives there’s still the issues that if the workers own the factories they aren’t going to be incentivized to take risks with the company, the average worker has no idea about macro-economics and how to run the business, and they also wont want to lower their wages if its necessary (like if the company is doing poorly or if there needs to be additional financial motivation for low preforming workers - obviously that can get out of hand but some of it makes sense). To somewhat even out the wealth gap I think higher taxes on the wealthy and more rights for unions is pretty much all that is needed.
I’m sure if we asked the billionaires and their paid-for politicians nicely, they’ll start writing and enforcing laws that’ll tax them more and give more rights to unions.
Hard /s