Red_Scare [he/him]

  • 2 Posts
  • 73 Comments
Joined 6 years ago
cake
Cake day: November 19th, 2020

help-circle

  • Chinese Marxists tend to have rather different views from Soviet Marxists. The latter tended to justify any intervention at all costs to spread socialism. The former tended to argue that socialism is something that must come from the bottom-up through grassroots movements, i.e. people have to want socialism, and that imposing it from the outside from the top-down can be rather counterproductive as people would then see socialism as an outside colonizing system to fight against if they want their own independence.

    Lofty phrases with little substance. USSR did not invade capitalist countries to forcibly turn them socialist, it supported existing socialist and decolonial movements.

    It requires incredible mental gymnastics to answer the question “why did China join USA to support reactionary jihadists, Pol Pot, and apartheid-aligned anti-communists against genuine socialist movements with broad popular support” with “because socialism must come from the bottom-up through grassroots movements”.

    Soviets labeling Yugoslavia’s Autonomous Socialism as revisionist, and suppressing the Eighth Plenum of the Polish United Workers’ Party which advocated for socialism with Polish characteristics.

    Soviets did not suppress the Eighth Plenum. They only demanded that Poland commits to remaining socialist, staying in the Warsaw Pact, and not expelling Soviet troops stationed in Poland (under condition they are not used to interfere in Poland’s internal affairs).

    Plenum went forward with all their proposals. Soviet-aligned members of party leadership were removed and Gomułka, who was previously expelled from the party as a right-nationalist deviationist, was elected leader. Proposed measures to decentralise power and institute worker self-management went through. So your assertion that USSR enforced a rigid model on Poland is markedly false.

    Gomułka very soon reversed those changes but those were internal Polish decisions because the party quickly realised it actually needs centralised power for the socialist project to survive - or because they lusted for power, whatever explanation works for you, what matters is there is zero evidence this reversal was forced by Moscow.

    Please also remember Mao himself was as ideologically rigid as Stalin. You bring up Yugoslavia but Mao also condemned Tito and Yugoslavian worker self-management as revisionism. He condemned Khrushchev’s reforms as revisionism too - why not let USSR blaze their own path if imposing the Stalin Model from outside is so bad?

    The “three obstacles” referred to the fact that the Soviets had troops in Afghanistan on their western border, Mongolia on their northern border, and Vietnam on their southern border, and were basically surrounded.

    This is again misleading, USSR only moved troops into Vietnam after China invaded Vietnam.

    The USSR and China had been working together to research nuclear weapons such that China could become a nuclear power, but Khrushchev made a deal with the US which required, on the Soviet’s end of the bargain, to stop helping China build nukes. The USSR then pulled out of China, withdrew all their scientists, and even burned all the research and documents to try and prevent the Chinese from building nukes.

    Two falsehoods here:

    • Khrushchev never made such deal with the US (or provide archival source, documents from this era are declassified and publicly available). Khrushchev withdrew support for Chinese nuclear program because Mao started shelling Taiwan and Khrushchev didn’t want to be dragged into a nuclear war with the USA.

    • There was no burning of research and documents. In fact once the cat was out of the bag there was no putting it back. China simply continued their nuclear program without Soviet help.

    Stalin had expressed this to a degree but Khrushchev made it far worse to the point where the Chinese started to become very fearful of the USSR.

    Exactly the opposite is true. Post-Stalin USSR afforded Soviet Bloc countries greater ideological, political, and economic freedom, expanded its support to non-socialist decolonial movements, and supported the Non-Aligned Movement.


    Overall a lot of this hinges on simply assuming that Mao’s paranoia about USSR had merits despite all archival evidence to the contrary.

    Mao feared that Khrushchev is starting a capitalist restoration and wants to make a deal with the USA against China, and decided to do it first. However no declassified Soviet or US documents support this.







  • All true but it’s a very rigid definition of imperialism, WW1 Russian Empire or Japan also wouldn’t meet it but their role in WW1 was imperialist.

    I’ll only take factual offence with this:

    Russia has intervened militarily in other countries such as Yugoslavia, Georgia, Ukraine, and Syria, but not to seize natural resources like imperialist countries do.

    Russia used arms sales, security contracts, and direct military intervention to secure natural resources in several African countries; and claiming Russia didn’t consider natural resources in Donbas at all is just silly. I don’t think it was the main reason but it definitely was part of the equation.



  • Disclaimer - obviously I don’t think Russia is imperialist in the same sense / measure as the USA, UK or EU. But I also don’t think it’s anti-imperialist in the same sense / measure as China, DPRK or Iran. It’s a capitalist oligarchy that is defending from NATO aggression and it’s global role is much more complex so it’s a discussion worth having and not something to just handwave away.

    the role tsarist russia played was of imperial nature because it still had enough “old world power” with its army, huge land and colonial periphery

    Are you saying Russia is not a global power anymore? Go say it anywhere on runet and see what happens 😂

    Recently the president of Azerbaijan dared to publicly say “China and America are the world’s two superpowers. There is no third.” and Russians were calling to expel every Azeri migrant from the country.

    Anyway and on a more serious note, obviously Russia still has everything you listed: an army including the largest nuclear arsenal in the world, huge land (largest state by territory) with immense natural wealth, and significant economic interest not only in the post-USSR territory but also in Africa, where it’s not doing what China is doing (building infrastructure and assisting development) but rather what the West has always been doing (selling arms and extracting gold, diamonds, uranium, oil, etc). Where China writes off debt, Russia writes it off under condition that same amount of money (or, often, larger) will be spent on Russian arms. Wagner group exchanged security services for access to natural resources, and so on.

    Of course, both modern Russia and China have nothing on genuine solidarity USSR extended to developing countries. Russia is still benefitting from the legacy of Soviet support for African liberation movements and lingering goodwill.

    genocidal proxy war

    This war decimated Ukraine demographically but it is not genocidal.

    If you’re calling drone strikes on Russian territory a genocide while Palestine and Sudan are ongoing… I don’t know what to tell you.

    They want to do to Russia, what they have done to their colonies.

    And what do you think they wanted to do to the Russian Empire?

    Russia is currently engaging in a fight for their own survival just like Iran

    You see, there, this is the problem with you. No, not “just like Iran”, nobody is carpet bombing Moscow like they do Tehran.

    I agree NATO is the primary aggressor and Russia is in a defensive position, and that ultimately the West just wants to bring the 90s back so they can extract resources and cheap labour from Russia. However it doesn’t itself establish that Russia doesn’t have imperialist aspirations, or that the escalation of 2022 was not imperialist in character.

    i am not even sure if Russia actually wants part of the imperial cake

    https://www.youtube.com/shorts/FWLqjf6sIBI



  • The “marxist perspective” is definitely not something that would conclude Russia is imperialist.

    No, not "definitely ", it’s very debatable especially because imperialism had a significant transformation since Lenin defined it. Remember, he was describing colonial imperialism and believed capitalist states will keep waging wars over colonies which would bring down capitalism, instead imperialism adapted and reshaped itself into neocolonialism where large powers gave up colonies in favour of economic domination and unequal exchange, then neoliberalism with it’s global value chains, labour arbitrage abroad and austerity at home, and now seems to be having another transformation into a much more militaristic expansion into new markets and simply exuberant destruction of the world to open opportunities for profitable investments into rebuilding.

    But I would be looking for things like coercive relationships where the capital of Nation A is growing as a result of exploiting the land/labor/resources of Nation B.

    Which is absolutely what Russian oligarchs did in Ukraine and other nations in the region, and large part of the reason for the war is so they can keep doing that unmolested.


  • Division of the world between large powers is only one aspect of Lenin’s definition of imperialism, others being concentration of production into monopolies, consolidation of industrial and financial capital (Russia meets those 100%), export of capital as a main economic activity as opposed of exporting labour, goods, or resources, and a creation of international capitalist associations (those are debatable).

    Much more importantly though, a country doesn’t need to be an established imperialist power to be engaged in an imperialist war. The Russian Empire, a backwards, feudal agrarian state that ran on slave labour until the late 19th century and was only beginning to industrialise, fit that definition even less than the Russian Federation does currently, yet according to Lenin it was engaged in an imperialist war and he developed revolutionary defeatism exactly in this situation.

    Lenin didn’t call to support what he called “young imperialist countries” like Germany or Japan against established imperialist countries like Britain or France. He called for the workers of all those countries to fight against their own governments, to turn the imperialist war abroad into the revolution at home.




  • There is no stalemate between proletariat and bourgeoisie, what are you smoking. Russian proletariat has no political power whatsoever, same as in other capitalist countries. Putin reigned in the oligarchs to some extent purely to end the selling out of Russia to the west, if anything he transformed comprador bourgeoisie into national bourgeoisie. This is a lesser evil compared to continued looting of the country like under Yeltsin, but it does not empower proletariat politically.




  • Red_Scare [he/him]@lemmygrad.mltoMemes@lemmygrad.ml•No kings!
    link
    fedilink
    arrow-up
    7
    arrow-down
    1
    ·
    edit-2
    2 months ago

    You’re fine as far as I’m concerned. There’s a bit of tone policing and lesser evilism going on in this thread. I think it’s fine to get angry at western white complicity given the times, especially if you’re from the global south, and to express that anger. Truth is, a lot of “liberal left” ideology is based on white supremacy, the saviour complex etc, even if they dont say the quiet part out loud. Getting sick of it and going, “no, you’re the lesser people!” is understandable, IMHO.