what do u think about it morally/in the abstract and in practice in capitalist states like northern europe?
In practice it is always going to be abused by the ruling class under capitalism for eugenicist purposes and as a way to get out of having to provide expensive healthcare to those who need it. Far cheaper to psychologically manipulate vulnerable people into “consenting” to being killed.
Something like this can only be ethical under socialism where no one lacks healthcare or the material means to live a comfortable life.
I am especially opposed to it in northern Europe which is exceptionally racist and eugenicist even by the standards of Western societies.
yes, i do believe it is eugenicist in europe but everybody looks at me like im crazy for suggesting. could u pls expand on why u believe this?
Because Europe has a history of murdering or forcibly sterilizing disabled and mentally ill people. Because the capitalist state wants to spend as little as possible on welfare. Because just killing people who cannot generate a profit for capitalists is the cheaper option. Because we can see what is already happening with “assisted suicide” in countries like Canada.
my country (Sweden) had mandatory sterilization of trans people until the big 2013 - but worry not, we have come a long way and it is amazing how much can change in 10 years (we are worse now)
Liberal me halfway bought into it for a bit. ML me says, it’s disturbing that this would even be a practice society would consider before exhausting other options, like community programs, better living conditions, free / low cost health treatments, meaningful shared purpose, and so on. As for the abstract of it, it’s irrelevant. We don’t exist in an abstract world. We live in a complicated real one and the fact is that the validation of this I’ve ever heard of as an “individual choice” comes from capitalist society, not socialist ones. And mental health issues are dramatically worse when people struggle to get basic needs met, or have chronic anxiety about becoming homeless because they’re so close to slipping into poverty, or their entire being is reduced to being seen as a commodity they are supposed to make marketable. And so on. (And this is not even getting into health issues that can be triggered from environmental pollution and such things.)
If a person has chronic pain and you ask them “do you want the pain to end”, they’re going to be like “no shit, I’d like the pain to end.” So what is your goal? You (society) do your best to help them live in a world where that pain is gone, or at least minimized. This should be obvious, but capitalism is sociopathic and doesn’t care if people die. Capitalism just cares that the line goes up.
For mental illness? I don’t think a mentally ill person can meaningfully consent to euthanasia.
eugenics with extra steps
i agree with this, can you expand on why u believe this?
capitalist society puts people into poverty + creates mental health crisis. this pressures people into looking for easy solutions. euthanasia is one of them. the people most affected by this are often racialized and/or lgbt+. we already see extremely high rates of suicide of trans teens for instance. creating legal structures for it only creates easier conditions for a eugenicist disposal of the “undesirables,” instead of actually solving the issues that lead people to be depressed (money, healthcare, alienation etc)
a society with legal euthanasia without universal healthcare / shelter / food is just a society that values death of “undesirable / unproductive” population over universal life
people in favour of assisted suicide never take alienation into account. if you want to be an artist but have to be a corporate worker of course you will want to kill yourself
Ideally assisted suicide should be available for anyone for any reason. I’ll concede a lengthy waiting period without a relevant medical condition but I’d like to see assisted suicide available mostly limit free
Here in North America I can imagine pamphlets for a for profit assisted suicide clinic prominently displayed in privately owned inpatient mental health facilities, just kinda nudging you towards offing yourself instead of getting better. Beds and treatment run upwards of $1,000/day and you’ll have to pay some of this off when you are out. You feel the walls closing in, debt spiral, degrading work conditions. You pick death when in an equitable society you would have chosen to live.
Implemented in a hypothetical near future USA it would be social murder except they hand you the gun and mutter something about it would be nice if you just went ahead and did it yourself.
No point in speaking about it in the abstract. In practice its social murder against the mentally ill. It is another avenue of war against those this society has disgraced and harmed.
Depression is not as they say, just a “chemical imbalance”. People are depressed for real reasons, not because their brain is faulty, it’s a normal reaction to a hopeless situation; though predisposition to it varies. The point is to not have people be in a hopeless position.
it surely is social suicide. i dont imagine mentally ill people have it very well in northern europe if they can just kill themselves so their friends (not government programs or systems) probably see no point in helping them. in liberal societies its your fault
Yes in theory, euthanasia should be a thing. The problem is that we live under capitalism, and therefore this will always be abused to kill the poor. It already happened in a few countries that allowed it, I believe Canada is one of them.
The problem is that we think or these options in an ideal world/in isolation but our world is soo far from that… that for this to be debated seriously we have soo much work ahead of us, before we are even close to the state where something like this should remotely be allowed.
I’d like it to be an option. Like, I’d like to have a worthy option of dying peacefully if I want to without having to seriously harm myself or traumatize others. I think that would be a good thing.
In practice it’s far from perfect as our social conditions play into mental health issues and therefore it is akin to eugenics.
I’m OK with euthanasia for terminal illness (end-stage cancer, Alzheimer’s, etc.) but much less OK for mental health. Mental health struggles are generally not permanent and are exacetbated by capitalism. If someone with depression feels useless, is running out of money, and wants euthanasia (I have felt this way before), the first-line solutions should be providing low-cost treatment, smoothing over financial difficulties, and helping them feel purpose rather than euthanasia.
I think it’s not a very good idea people that struggle should get the help and accommodations they need to heal and function. Liberalism tells us that if you can’t function on your own you’re worthless which is just not true.
