I recently made a post about this topic but it caused a lot of controversy. I did not specify and used the broad term of sex work which probably made the interpretations so varied. For the purposes of this conversation, I want to focus on work that is consensual because obviously human trafficking or coercive sex is inherently wrong and exploitative. Some people even said that sex work is not valid labor which I personally found strange. I’m personally not a fanboy of the sex industry at all, but most people involved would say that the illegality of it exacerbates the bad situation that they find themselves in, and I cannot personally find a reason to be going against what the people involved are saying. And yeah it probably wouldn’t exist under socialism but at the same time, I think it is a huge mistake to go in with an iron fist and just say “I’m going to make everyone stop sex work right this instant because it’s not socialist” because this does not treat the underlying causes of it, which will only make it spring back up anyway.
And I’m not just expecting one type of answer but if I am making an error in applying dialectical materialism or Marxism-Leninism please let me know.
well…the issue with prostitution is that is very likely that something that should be a fringe fetish (having sex with unknown people) has become into a business. in capitalist society most of the prostitutes when they’re not sex slaves, the ones that “do it consensually” is mostly because there’s no other job available in their current condition, or their current level of education, or even then, wage labor gives them less money and even less free time than doing prostitution
My thoughts exactly. As Marxists we don’t care if you have sex with lots of people, strangers, or like showing off a bit among consenting adults. The problem is the toxic grindset, side-hustle mentality that says you should turn a hobby into a career. Among those who aren’t pushed into it by bad economic circumstances there’s this odd idea that sex (often specifically masturbation if we’re talking cam stuff) should be monetized. This will make the world better these people think for some reason. Monetization of free things has yet to really improve anything but they’re sure this time it will. Now I’m a fan of masturbation myself. I think everyone should do it from time to time as needs dictate. What I am not a fan of is turning what should be a nice private moment or an intimate moment with a loved one/romantic partner or an exhilarating act of free love and daring do showing off to strangers into something that’s charged for and which you basically do what someone on the other side of the screen tells you to do.
And I have looked into this a little, read a little literature on it. Before a bunch of jerk men started screen-recording and capturing everything and everyone realized that oh shit the internet is forever and others will see this. There was a thriving bit of time where a certain amount of lonely women would show off for lonely men online and everyone had a good time. No money was exchanged, no goods were begged for, no like or subscribe buttons were smashed. It was just good old human horniness and a bit of mutual help between introverts. Strangely, though that died, what arose some years later was the practice of selling yourself in the same format. It arrived just as patreon and other things were springing up and people were tossing their little hobby projects they’d previously freely shared behind paywalls.
Socialism thusly should strive to bring back free love. Abolish gating hobbys behind micro-fees. Encourage sharing, cooperation, and the finer parts of being human that have been taken from us by capitalism.
Consensual sex work?
Uh, yeah, I sure hope it does
this is something i’m quite convinced you’ll never produce a consensus on except in the most particular of crowds.
“work in nonconsensual, sexwork cannot be consensual” is a fairly impenetrable logic, and people decide from that from sexwork must be illegal because nonconsensual sex is wrong.
or you can separate an economic imperative a bit from sexual consent and concede that reality doesn’t align perfectly with what we’d like. i’d never tell someone who believes their sexwork to be consensual that it actually wasn’t because of the abstract construction of the economy, myself. i also won’t advocate for hounding people selling sex with cops, even if they’re Good Socialist Cops. if things are ever so good that sexwork need not exist, i don’t think there’d be any reason to criminalize it, because nobody would partake. it was an exercise in obscene idealism for the Soviet Union to pretend prostitution couldn’t exist so long as deficiencies existed in the economy, and it will continue to be until a socialist economy makes the fulfillment of everyone’s needs a reality
First off I’m not saying it needs to stop existing right now, we exist under capitalism. It cannot be abolished as long as capitalism reigns. However I am saying under socialism it WILL be abolished. We will not ask permission. We will give the victims resources, housing, food, stability, education, jobs. We will give those who try to do so in spite of that counseling, group therapy, theory lessons, re-education. Those who a third time in a situation where their material needs are met, where they have opportunities, where they’ve been given re-education and therapy choose to attempt to perpetuate it under that system however will get the iron fist. It will be merciless. As we are merciless as revolutionaries in our drive to abolish the old superstructure, to bring about a better world for all our children but especially in this context our daughters.
To address the question: There can be no consent under the influence of patriarchal liberal capitalism in which we live. Consent is born of ability to make a rational judgement informed by the full facts and with a real choice of options not compromised by external pressures.
Now, just as many pedophiles groom their victims, society grooms women and girls from a young age. A pedophile grooming an underage victim is one person that usually spends months to a couple years at most. Society grooms and indoctrinates girls from birth, years, not one person, the media, people all around them, including often their parents, siblings, their female friends as they grow up, their male friends as they grow up, etc. And it is a proven system, it’s a set of shackles that has refined itself with help from society for centuries, a thousand years. It is clever, insidious, pervasive, and it invades the psychology of every girl and woman alive so despite us also being the victims we also often perpetuate it and enforce it on ourselves, on other women, on men.
Besides consent is secondary. That’s a liberal, libertarian take, that says as long as both parties consent it’s okay. Well I can find two parties that consent to overthrowing the revolution and coordinating a fascist party, but guess what? Vanguard party gets a fucking veto on things harmful to the revolution, the proletariat body, etc. Individual centered, selfish thinking.
The people themselves are saying it someone claims. Well in my previous response I pointed out what if theoretically you had a thriving industry of gay and trans people who were paid to give speeches at churches and spread homophobia and transphobia, flagellate themselves. I’m sure you could find among those doing that those who’d say wait a second, this gives me good money, it’s not hard work, I enjoy it better than working in factory, why won’t you let me do this when I say it’s consensual. And the reason why is just as that person is spreading homophobia and enabling bigots, disharmony among the working class, division, crude hatreds. So too are women who “choose” to prostitute themselves and say they consent and enjoy it harming all women. Not just women but girls, children.
Another example, if slavery had evolved to have a class of paid, even very well paid, labor aristocracy, making the big bucks, black people who whipped and kept black slaves in line for white people, you would have those people with their perverse incentive to maintain the structure they profit off of without consideration to the victims and what they’re actually doing who would speak out against abolishing slavery because it would hurt their livelihood.
See this is what is so insidious about patriarchy. It makes women oppress themselves, participate in it yet we’re blind to it. It is a more complex form of slavery, it’s mental slavery and bondage, it is the Matrix and a large amount of women have been convinced that they’re not shackled, or that the shackles are good for them, that they need them, that it is the natural order. Or they have warped perceptions of what liberation looks like, they think how emancipated they are by commodifying themselves instead of just giving themselves to a husband or boyfriend (or doing both, commodifying themselves and their partner). Feminism itself has been hijacked to serve the capitalist system. Liberal platitudes and nonsense are offered up. We’re told how empowering it is to be paid to masturbate on camera to men who tell us how they’d like to choke us or fuck us in ways that hurt us. We’re told how empowering it is to profit off the alienation and isolation of men who are also victims of capitalism and patriarchy and are also kept in a certain role and misery by it. And how empowering it is to perpetuate that.
When you call for normalizing (not decriminalizing, which is different) prostitution and sexual exploitation through digital means such as cam work you say to young girls, you say to teenage girls “hustle your body”. You say to them, their p*ssy has a price tag, you say to them, their tits are their ticket to a new iphone, they just need to find some guys who will buy this product. You say to teen boys that they can fuck the hot girl or at least get videos of her masturbating and saying their name a few times if they make enough money to pay her, that sex, relationships are just a transaction. That these boys need to hustle to afford paying these girls for attention, for sex, for intimacy, for emotional support. What do you think all this does to young men and young women? To kids? And how they interact with the opposite sex going forward in their lives? How they perceive them? And if you can’t see how this is a problem I don’t know what to say.
It breeds contempt for women and girls. Men no longer see us as equals, as other workers. They see us as things to buy, a pussy to rent, emotional support for pay. I cease to become a person and instead become a commodity. It’s not about an intimate, equal, sharing relationship with pleasure for both of us, with emotional labor and support for both of us, it’s about paying me off for access to what the man wants.
Have you ever seen the spamming that goes on by “cam workers” on websites to try and try drive traffic to themselves? It’s mostly removed on sites like reddit pretty quickly but it’s a constant thing going on in the background. These so-called liberated women, these so-called “sex workers” push themselves on men who don’t even want to buy, badger them just the same as a woman walking the streets, they call men the f-word, challenge their masculinity, badger them, try and entice them into paying them, plead with them. There is this idea, false that these women are just waiting around passively and all these men come to them and sure some of the bigger ones can perhaps afford to do that, but for the rest they must exploit themselves, they must slap men with patriarchy, they must perpetuate this structure to maximize their take, their income, their profits. Indeed in many cases when they are doing it to stay afloat, to avoid starvation and homelessness to just survive, to get enough to survive. They must indulge in more extreme kinks to stand out, etc.
Women and girls are not allowed to be full people like men. We are the sum of our pretty face, our societally deemed attractive body, our tits, our ass, our sexual organs. We are treated like cars, wrinkles or imperfections like dents on a vehicle that lower its value and drive a discerning owner to trade in for a new one the moment the chance arises. Our emotions, our feelings, our wants, our humanity is denied, rejected.
If sex work is just another form of labor, nothing special, nothing particularly exploitative or fraught about it as you claim then it shouldn’t be a big deal for non sex-workers to occasionally do a little, right? It’s just another form of low skill labor (yes it can take practice, some knowledge, but so does writing with a pen or typing on a keyboard none of us were born knowing how to do these things and in fact I had a class in elementary school to learn typing). Just as it wouldn’t be a big deal for a manager to ask an employee to do some menial task that is not in their job description, move a box of finished product to the lab or front desk, go out and get some more coffee for the coffee machine, it should not be any kind of special or weird matter if that same manager asked his woman employee to give him a blowjob or let him finger her or just heck flash her breasts at him, it won’t take more than 20 seconds and it’ll really calm him down and help his day or whatever the excuse in vogue for why sex work is needed is. It certainly shouldn’t be a big case of sexual harassment if she doesn’t want to do it because well it’s just labor, he’s just asking for some labor. Right? That seems to me to be the world normalizers will to exist. If it’s acceptable for women’s bodies to be bought, sold, traded, then all are on seen as being on sale. Which leads to more harassment, more entitlement, etc.
I don’t think it’s a long-term career path which also sets it apart from other forms of labor. For most women once you get beyond your late 20s, early 30s you don’t have enough of a customer-base to sustain yourself on as a sole means of income or probably enough to even justify doing it. The exceptions being those who do very extreme, dangerous acts that no one else would do. So the 'industry" incentivizes people being pushed out at a certain age. Even manual physical labor many people can do into their late 40s, 60s even if they stay reasonably in shape and that’s another thing, you have to stay in a certain shape to get any reasonable amount of money from men.
It’s a pedophilic industry. It preys on youth, uses you during your youth, then spits you out without a goodbye, don’t let the door hit you on your way out. It isn’t anything to do with skill. In any other industry more senior workers in a given field with more skill and talent have higher positions and income, with this it is the youngest performers for the most part while the old get very little and eventually are forced out.
AI specifically is probably going to blow most of these cam-girls out of the water. Once it can be done cheaply enough and convincingly enough and respond properly to chat prompts and verbal commands which is probably within 6-10 years, some company can spin up a service or invade existing services that charge (without even telling people they’re doing it with AI) and just flood the market with very cheap simulacra that unlike real women don’t tire of things, that don’t balk at extreme or degrading acts, that do whatever the male wants. And to the eyes of men this will be better, because an AI cam-girl can be any combination of pornified personality you’d like plus any combination of hair color, style, breast size, skin color, eye color, and on and on.
The prevalence of sex work is itself a demand created in part by alienation. Under socialism we do not strive to perpetuate alienation, but to abolish it. We strive to have community, togetherness with our fellow workers. And this is division. It will not be needed, it will be seen as an aberration. The worst lie is the one that it is the oldest profession. That is false. It has not always been so and it need not always be so.
Honestly have nothing but contempt for the prostitution aristocracy. If you’re doing it to avoid the streets or starving I understand desperation. But glamorizing it, saying it’s a great “side hustle” (which itself is a vile phrase and should be a tell because those shouldn’t exist), the damage it does in perpetuating the patriarchy, the damage it does to young girls. It makes me weep. Really. I really do cry. It is upsetting that people are saying this is a good thing and valid and should exist forever because you are saying you want girls and women to be second class forever.
Men in the GDR (East Germany) where women had an astonishingly high orgasm rate from sexual encounters were noted to complain they had to put in effort with women, in their relationships, in doing work in the home, chores, etc. That is actually what we want. We want men who have to put in the work for relationships with us. We want a society of boys who do not think they can just buy female attention, affection, and sex but must put in work to us, for us, with us. Together.
One last thing, asking active “sex workers” for their input on it is not the end-all-be-all. People deny exploitation all the time. (Hello, where are we? Capitalism)
To go back to the grooming example, victims of pedophiles who have been groomed extensively can spend quite some time in denial despite society shouting at them collectively that it is wrong and despite being in counseling. How long can someone live in denial when society validates their denial and attacks those who question it? Probably their whole life. We live in a system where people deny they are exploited. Patriarchal gas-lighting of women is older, as or more sophisticated than gas-lighting of workers, because it predates capitalism let us remember. It hurts to think of oneself as exploited, it hurts your pride, your sense of self. You want to say, no I chose that, I had power, I wasn’t victimized because that’s scary. Because for many that makes you feel weak and helpless and awful instead of empowered. Denial.
Women are taught to lie. To not hurt men’s feelings so they don’t hurt or kill us, to spare boys for the sake of not being labeled nasty, mean, a dog. That includes lying to ourselves. Saying we’re okay with something when we’re not. Lots of women have stories of only realizing they were sexually assaulted years after the fact because society and their own desire not to have experienced that, not to confront it convince them it didn’t happen. Aversion.
Maybe it doesn’t always hurt all of these women themselves. But it hurts women as a whole and children, and men. And Marxists are concerned about the whole picture not your fucking individual liberty to do whatever the fuck you want and damn the consequences to society.
This has been one of the best explanations of the issue that i have ever read and honestly should be made into its own post and pinned somewhere for everyone to read who is still confused on this subject!
One more thing:
Now some foolish people will claim they’re like therapists, but they’re not, they’re not trained and no psychology body Marxist (or liberal so far to my knowledge) would say this is an ethical thing to do that will help patients. And people claim some guys pay to talk to them but if guys really need someone to talk to it should be other men they know not strangers, women they have pre-existing platonic relationships with, and professional trained psychiatric professionals because you should get people the help they need, not exploit them for money and leave them dependent on you (which is the necessary action of these workers, to continue to draw an audience, to make people dependent on them for something they don’t need to survive nor does industry need it to keep the economy going). So the charade falls, these people are selling bodies, women’s bodies.
It is at best in the case of those who “want to” a case of people trying to turn a hobby into a career. I don’t think professional-career-gamers will exist under socialism, not unless it’s a formal televised or ticketed sport, without capitalist ad dollars and sponsorships the whole thing dries up. I think only a tiny handful of people will get there and it’ll be as unattainable as being a rock star. I also don’t think masturbating and chatting casually with strangers counts as necessary labor. It begs the question, these women are no better than others at erm their sexual tasks, basically none of them have any formal acting training, they aren’t trained therapists. The value is overwhelmingly in sexual interests and stimulation.
Which brings up a segue, and this isn’t entirely related but I’ll preach, I am tired of everything being charged for and this perpetuates that late capitalist mentality. Human companionship should absolutely not be in that list of things to monetize. I miss the days of free software, now every jerk with every little piece of software that they spent a few hours on is charging $5 on patreon to use it. Why? Because of hustle culture, because of the idea nothing should be free. That society is owed jack shit by you. That you have no responsibility beyond what you are paid for. It’s a cynical, alienating, anti-social thought pattern.
Now I’m absolutely not saying women are obligated to help men out in this area, because we’re not and goodness help you if you say otherwise as men need to help themselves first. I am saying if you like as a hobby being an exhibitionist then go and do so but don’t perpetuate the idea of paying for women and access to our bodies.
Besides that it obviously provides cover for exploitation. Who’s to say for certain that person on the camera is 18? Hell, 18 year olds shouldn’t be able to do this. Brain development doesn’t really complete until you hit 23-25 or so. The very idea it is legitimate, not anti-social, normal, accepted will further encourage underage teenagers to attempt to find ways to do it. It’ll seem easier, something they can do alongside school, something not regulated. The open market provides cover for the black market, we see that in the flesh markets of the Netherlands. Already there are girls who do this, they use social media, they use code words. This is an abomination.
Maybe more effort should be focused on banning misogyny and re-educating people who exploit others for their personal pleasure instead of putting all of the effort into infantiziling women and speaking for them as a monolith. It looks to me that the (rightful) contempt you harbor is actually more about patriarchal control and violence by men towards women. That’s the real issue. If that were dealt with, sex work in the huge, huge part would resolve itself, especially as long as there are abundant resources available for women to access. Maybe it will disappear completely, naturally.
Those who a third time in a situation where their material needs are met, where they have opportunities, where they’ve been given re-education and therapy choose to attempt to perpetuate it under that system however will get the iron fist. It will be merciless.
Women getting the iron fist, especially in a time where they HAVE been brain washed, as you say…Feels extremely misogynistic. I don’t often see women advocating and pushing or FORCING other women to get into sex work as this great, glamorous career. Why are you putting so much effort into saying this about women instead of focusing on violent, manipulative men who coerce women and do horrible things to them? This perspective just serves to perpetuate violence and misogyny to me.
Also men and people of different genders engage in sex work. Perhaps that’s brainwashing as well but just wanted to throw that out there.
Women getting the iron fist, especially in a time where they HAVE been brain washed, as you say…Feels extremely misogynistic.
Please, try and engage honestly with all of what I have said in the paragraph you are referencing. It’s all right there at the top of my post. Act in good faith. Thanks.
What did I say? Did I say right now? Did I say under capitalism? No. I said under socialism. I said under socialism after their material needs have been met, they aren’t going to lose a home or food, or medical care for sake of ceasing to do this “work”. I said after not only that but intervention, therapy, re-education. If both of those things fail you have people willingly engaging in anti-social behavior, they’ve been brainwashed by communists (do you know the origin of brain washing? It literally means to wash the brain, to wash out the lies, to capitalists and imperialists who were frightened by their soldiers in Korea being woken up to what they were doing of course they’d conflate it with indoctrination, I don’t hold it against you that you use it that way, many people do, but I did want to point it out as it’s an interesting fact), that is cleansed of indoctrination while being provided for and they still choose to defy the line we’ve set, then and only then does anything happen. That is extremely lenient, extremely caring, we are under my proposal taking great pains to avoid having to be harsh. We are doing everything we can to materially meet needs, and educate. But you must understand. There is a tiny fraction of the population who refuse re-education. Who refuse to be deprogrammed of the old superstructure, of old social structures.
To address the second part briefly. I am engaging in a conversation with people who take as a given that pimps and men profiting off women selling sex is bad. I am engaging in a conversation with people who deflect with, well it was the woman’s choice, it wasn’t men, she likes it, she chose it. Etc. My post does go over men but it is huge as you can see no doubt. I didn’t want to pad it out going over something everyone already agrees with and I really do not appreciate your insinuations towards me which are little more than personal attacks and cheap shots from someone who has no argument to offer.
Women perpetuate misogyny and this must be recognized and dealt with in any conversation where people pull out token women to excuse something. Men are primarily responsible, overwhelmingly responsible for misogyny and patriarchy and upholding it with incredible violence. It is their job, their fault and I expect them as comrades to shoulder primary responsibility which includes not perpetuating things like what we are discussing. However we cannot ignore in desiring to abolish it that there are women who will resist us actively, who will aid, abet, and join with those men seeking to uphold it. And this conversation got into that territory. And I have addressed their existence as best I could in brief without getting bogged down into a dissertation on the matter.
Also men and people of different genders engage in sex work. Perhaps that’s brainwashing as well but just wanted to throw that out there.
Absolutely men and people of other genders engage in sex work and prostitution. However it is a primarily women’s issue and it is from that perspective of feminism and women’s rights I address it. I do not want to distract from the fact prostitution was not built and is not a structure primarily of oppression to men, LGBTQ+ people, etc, that any such oppression came later, often as part of, ancillary too the structure of patriarchy and misogyny. Overwhelmingly women are those who do it and men are those who consume it. That includes trans women and the issue of trans-misogyny by the way. Fetishization, degradation, de-humanization. Trans-women are women and women are not your fetish or kink they are people my friend. That said, if one were to abolish it only among women and leave men and other genders in it, you’d have the same issues I raised which would form around them. So don’t think I favor only saving women. I am talking about snatching back human sexuality from capitalism and this vile industry.
I’m curious how many people that respond to these types of posts actually consider themselves sex workers. I feel like having this debate without the voices of the people who participate in it front and center is pointless.
I have been and mostly enjoyed it, but what I don’t enjoy is debate and paternalistic questioning of my personal agency, so I avoid engaging on this topic.
Yeah, paternalism and stigmatization is usually what I see come out of these discussions within Marxist circles online. It’s always that drugs and sex work are inherently problematic in any form and that they wouldn’t be useful after the revolution, but there will always be a want and need if there are people willing or wanting to engage in the work to provide those things then why should it matter to anyone? Anyway that’s where I stand on it, it’s just when people start to infringe on others’ bodily autonomy and leaning into puritanism I get the ick
there will always be a want and need if there are people willing or wanting to engage in the work to provide those things then why should it matter to anyone
Well shit, if there is a market for it, how can it be bad?
