Stalin coined the term Marxism-Leninism. Marxism-Leninism was already in practice in Lenin’s time, though Lenin didn’t say his application of Marx’s theories was Leninist, the same way Marx didn’t call himself a Marxist. It was only after the fact that Stalin synthesized Marxism-Leninism by combining Lenin’s and Marx’s theories. In the same way, people didn’t call themselves Hegelians or Darwinians when Hegel and Darwin were alive.
Lenin was very serious about staying true to Marx, to the point of quoting entire pages to be sure he’s not taking things out of context. His work is Marx’s thought applied to economical and political developments Marx couldn’t have foreseen, but it’s in no way revisionist. I think this is why Stalin called it “Marxism-Leninism”, to make sure it’s clear this is Marxism.
Still you have “orthodox Marxists” who will claim ML is not really Marxism but I think if it was called just “Leninism” it would’ve been even easier for them to claim Leninism isn’t even Marxism.
I’ve interacted with several people who referred to themselves as Leninists, and every single one of them turned out to actually be Trotskyists.
Not at all, Lenin is so important complement to Marxism that you cannot ignore him.
Lenin’s contributions include the understanding of imperialism, a more systematic approach towards understanding national liberation movements, his contributions to revolutionary praxis, the theory and practice of the dictatorship of the proletariat, many contributions of political tactics and strategy, tactics of revolutionary organization, his philosophy of organization (democratic centralism), his contributions towards a systematic dialectical materialist understanding…
Lenin’s contributions far exceed any other Marxist in terms of revolutionary praxis. So Marxism is the philosophical worldview which instructs our understanding of the capitalist system, while Leninism is the body of work detailing strategy and tactics towards revolutionary action. So yes, Marxism-Leninism is an appropriate description of the current state of Marxist development.
I meant that saying “Leninism” includes Marxism the same way Mao Zedong Thought includes Leninism. Therefore, just saying “Leninism” would suffice without having to include “Marxism”.
Are you insisting on that? lol
Marxism is not complete without Lenin. Period.
Yes, Lenin’s contributions are in the Marxist camp. But they are so important that some people who care about revolution realized he is not merely a complement, Lenin’s works are an essential part of Marxism. If you want to remove that label from yourself and call yourself a red cuddly bear, go ahead. But Marxism-Leninism is clear about the origins of the theoretical basis of a person or organization, while “Marxist” alone is not that much. Many “respectable” academics who are absolutely alienated from the actual problems of working class, organization and revolution, call themselves Marxist. But I never saw a “Marxist-Leninist” academic.
This is the political line that separates the scholastic from the revolutionary. So it’s not a small thing, and not simply a label you call yourself.
You misunderstood what I meant. I meant that there are non-Leninists Marxists, but that all Leninists are Marxists; therefore, saying “Marxist-Leninist” seems redundant.
Edit: Also can you please not laugh at what I say? That is just patronizing and rude. This is supposed to be a place of respect, and I in no way have disrespected you or infantalized you by mocking what you say, thanks.
I don’t know you in a personal level and we are not friends in any way, so that was just uncalled for.
there are non-Leninists Marxists
therefore, saying “Marxist-Leninist” seems redundant.
If there are non-Leninist Marxists, then Marxism-Leninism is not a redundancy, it’s reaffirmation of a position. Isn’t that clear?
Also can you please not laugh at what I say? That is just patronizing and rude. This is supposed to be a place of respect, and I in no way have disrespected you or infantalized you by mocking what you say, thanks.
Sorry, but your argument is so silly that I simply cannot take it seriously. I have respect for you as a person, but I have no respect for the arguments you’re giving so far.
If there are non-Leninist Marxists, then Marxism-Leninism is not a redundancy
If all Leninists are Marxists then it is redundant. Since Lenin was a Marxist who built on top of Marxism then Leninism is Marxist. Just saying Leninist shall suffice.
Marxism has different branches to it, yes, but hyphenating a term that already includes Marxism makes the first word redundant. It is like saying that there are modes of transportation. A car is already a mode of transportation, but instead of saying “car” to refer to the mode of transportation that is a car, people just say “mode of transportation-car” every time.
Sorry, but your argument is so silly that I simply cannot take it seriously.
Mocking someone and laughing at them is such an unbecoming and unprofessional behavior for a Marxist admin. You should really change your attitude and treat others with respect.
If you disagree with someone, just say a counter argument, downvote them or ignore them, but if they are talking to you in good faith, being disrespectful is just a nasty attitude that turns people off and away from these spaces, specially if it is from someone in a position of power as yourself.
Mocking someone and laughing at them is such an unbecoming and unprofessional behavior for a Marxist admin. You should really change your attitude and treat others with respect.
I do. I’m usually the one who insists on doing so. I took an exception in this thread and discussion because the arguments of those who say it’s “redundant” are very flawed, yet they are repeating themselves every time. The same way you’re insisting on your position, I’m insisting on giving the “redundants” this treatment.
If all Leninists are Marxists then it is redundant. Since Lenin was a Marxist who built on top of Marxism then Leninism is Marxist. Just saying Leninist shall suffice.
Marxism has different branches to it, yes, but hyphenating a term that already includes Marxism makes the first word redundant. It is like saying that there are modes of transportation. A car is already a mode of transportation, but instead of saying “car” to refer to the mode of transportation that is a car, people just say “mode of transportation-car” every time.That example was extraordinarily silly lol. What’s your point? Do you want to convince us not to call ourselves Marxists? Or do you not want to call ourselves Leninists, only Marxists? Vice-versa? What’s your point? What are you trying to accomplish with this discussion? Why do you care so much about this? What difference does it make what you call yourself, why do you want us to agree with you? You wouldn’t be insisting on this scholastic and irrelevant “issue” if you didn’t have a purpose. So if you want to be taken seriously, please be clear on what you’re trying to accomplish, because I can only see someone in confusion and trying to confuse others in the process.
To call oneself a Leninist, while a historical term, Marxist-Leninist, already exists, seems like trying to diminish Marx. To call oneself a Marxist claiming “Leninism” is a redundancy seems like trying to diminish Lenin. The term, Marxism-Leninism, a historical term, already exists, and based on that, many revolutionary theories were developed. There’s no need to reinvent the wheel.
Both Marx (and Engels by extension) and Lenin were extraordinarily important in developing a revolutionary worldview. It’s important to preserve their names as they are both an unavoidable source of knowledge. Removing one or the other completely scars both. Just so you see how this is important, there are a lot of Marxists who ignore Engels’ contribution, I’d say simply because Marx is more known than Engels, and thus, more prone to be read. The fact that our science is called “Marxism” undoubtedly has contributed to this. So preserving Marxism-Leninism is important to not diminish the contributions of one or the other.
Notice how there are people who call themselves Marxist-Leninist-Maoist. Don’t they attach to Mao a greater importance than most Marxists-Leninists? Again, it’s not a coincidence, it’s a reaffirmation of a position, like I mentioned, and also a reaffirmation of the theoretical body of work responsible for that position.
I do.
You don’t. You have done everything, but that this far.
I’m usually the one who insists on doing so.
Doesn’t seem like it at all, with how you have conducted yourself in this convo so far.
I took an exception in this thread and discussion because the arguments of those who say it’s “redundant” are very flawed, yet they are repeating themselves every time.
You could have literally said: “Your arguments are flawed, for x, y and z” instead of mocking me and saying something totally unrelated to the point which made me think that you misunderstood my point and had me re-phrasing it for the sake of clarity.
The same way you’re insisting on your position, I’m insisting on giving the “redundants” this treatment.
I don’t understand how you are honestly rationalizing being patronizing and disrespectful to someone who is talking to you in good faith, by saying that is just redundant. This is literally no way to have a constructive conversation. This is purely childish behavior.
I really don’t think that this conversation is going anywhere because you are being very bad faith about it.
I just rather don’t engage with you, honestly. Please feel free to ignore me from now on, unless I break the rules or something.
I would say my points about the arguments you stated below, but you obviously have 0 respect for me and as you said, you don’t take me seriously, so I rather not engage with someone who is bad faith like that.
Marx and Lenin focused on different things. The primary focus of Marx was on economic theory while Lenin’s primary focus was on how to organize an effective revolution. This is an excellent take on the subject incidentally
You can’t just say Leninist because people might think you’re a Beatles fan
You must look at the 20s and 30s in the Soviet Union, especially after Lenin died. I personally only use “Marxist” and this is how I describe myself. Marxist-Leninist is not valid term in my opinion, because Lenin is the continuation of Marx. If I encounter someone who is d’accord with Stalin, Trotsky or maybe Mao, I call them stalinist, trotskyist or whatever. I do it, because they are important differences in what those people think.
Let’s say I would think, that Bukharin/Stalin/Trotsky is the man I think has the right thoughts. For me, this would be the continuation of marxism and everything else would be revisionist, reactionary and non-marxist. Don’t making difference would be the same as naming everything “tankie”.
So I still say I am a Marxist, but if anyone would ask me what my opinion is regarding those figures, I would then say, that I am trotskyist/stalinist/bukharist. I hope it is understandable what I am trying to say.
I know that many here call themself Marxist-Leninist and seriously use this term, but I don’t, I don’t think it is a valid term. After Stalin there were enough figures who used it anyway. After “sino-soviet split” they both claimed to be the continuation of Marxism-Leninism.
So I always like to ask more questions. While probably Trotskyism is maybe for many the same thing, there are many differences. In this way I can know if I have it to do with a person who is actually a liberal in disguise or someone who is “orthodox”. The same thing goes for other factions.
“stalinist” is only used by those opposed to ML tho.
As I said ML is not a valid term in my opinion and historically it was used after the establishing and banning of the “left opposition”, especially by Stalin. After splits here and there between the soviet union and other countries, where everyone claimed to be the true continuation of ML, I prefer to differ this way. And since other splits after Lenin’s dead also claimed to be the true successors of Lenin, I think it is more accurate to handle it this way
As I said ML is not a valid term in my opinion and historically it was used after the establishing and banning of the “left opposition”, especially by Stalin.
Stalin, you say? The Cuban, Vietnamese, Chinese, Korean and many African revolutions were all led by people who called themselves Marxists-Leninists. Strange coincidence, huh? It’s like “Lenin” had a massive importance in terms of revolutionary practice, perhaps?
And? Lenin had and has still massive importance even for groups who splitted with the SU or those opposition right or left which where there for a while. So answer me, what are you trying to imply? And of course Stalin, because he is an important figure. ML simply don’t just refer to Marx and Lenin and I already wrote about that more concrete in another comment of mine
So answer me, what are you trying to imply?
I’m implying that those who care too much about trying to remove the “Leninist” from Marxist-Leninist are people who do not understand the importance of Lenin. Or perhaps they do and they are doing on purpose like classic revisionists. First comes “why Leninism?” before “why Marxism?”
Well, I don’t want to be rude, but where the fuck did I want remove especially Lenin in his importance? I am talking about, that ML is simply not concrete enough and therefore not a term I can work with, only use it in a vague definition, where I ignore the others important figures after him, which added unique thoughts and theories. Referring to myself and talking about communism, the term “marxism” is still something I prefer to use, you can not think about marxism without Lenin. In another comment I explained, that I still use ML where it is needed so someone can still understand me. I don’t see any proof, that the way how I handle it is anywhere some revisionist move, where I want to remove Lenin and then probably Marx. The only thing I see is, that I use marxism or some term which can cover the uniqueness of a important person in the history of ML
Well, I don’t want to be rude, but where the fuck did I want remove especially Lenin in his importance?
Right in the fuck where you insist Marxism-Leninism is not a valid term. I don’t care if you use “Marxist” with your friends and family, but I do care if you claim it’s not a valid term and use the shittiest explanation ever to defend that. We’ve seen revisionists and opportunists everywhere in history trying their best to distance themselves from Lenin, only to distance themselves from Marx later on. Fuck off with that bullshit.
Marxist-Leninist is not valid term in my opinion, because Lenin is the continuation of Marx.
You underestimate the relevance and importance of Lenin. No, Lenin is not a continuation of Marx, Lenin is Marx in practice. It’s clear by your rambling that, by stripping “Lenin”, that you have no care for revolutionary practice. What you call yourself is irrelevant, but to claim the term is invalid is just an spectacle of ignorance. At this point, you should very well stop calling yourself a “Marxist”, even. 😉
You underestimate the relevance and importance of Lenin
Do I? Where? By saying that I would call myself Marxist and not add more things because to it or just by talking about “Marxism” and not “Marxisim-Leninism” in general? That’s stupid.
Lenin is not a continuation of Marx, Lenin is Marx in practice
And therefore not a continuation? Mutual exclusive? Some would argue, that Lenin had nothing to do with Marx, like some pseudo-left might do it, but I don’t. Lenin is the continuation of Marx and of course Marx in practice.
It’s clear by your rambling that, by stripping “Lenin”, that you have no care for revolutionary practice.
I just always talk about Marxism as generally term, not adding Engels or Lenin. If this is your proof, that I don’t care for revolutionary practice, then revolutionary praxis probably means not much for you.
What you call yourself is irrelevant, but to claim the term is invalid is just an spectacle of ignorance.
I already explained often enough, that ML is still not a valid term for me, it doesnt even stop by Lenin and goes beyond the developments that occurred after his death. Where is the ignorance? That I use a different words which probably makes no difference at all and means the same?
At this point, you should very well stop calling yourself a “Marxist”, even. 😉
Thanks for the advice, great analysis at all. By thinking that ML is not valid term and others are better, while I am using ML in discussions, I am probably not a Marxist at all, but a full blood liberal. I will now throw everything away, immigrate to the USA as fast as I can, so I can vote for a party which supports genocide.
Do I? Where? By saying that I would call myself Marxist and not add more things because to it or just by talking about “Marxism” and not “Marxisim-Leninism” in general? That’s stupid.
By insisting on saying the term was invalid, so it’s not about what you call yourself. I’m explaining to you that is not only valid, but essential. It’s not just a label, it’s a political orientation. “Marxism” is broad, Marxism-Leninism is more specific and to the point.
I already explained often enough, that ML is still not a valid term for me, it doesnt even stop by Lenin and goes beyond the developments that occurred after his death. Where is the ignorance?
The fact that you are insisting on this discussion and your position is a political statement. The fact that you insist it’s an “invalid term” is either a presentation of your ignorance or cynicism. You could argue Marx is a continuation of Hegel and call yourself a Hegelian for what it’s worth. Why don’t you call yourself a Hegelian? Why call yourself Marxist at all?
“Marxism” is broad, Marxism-Leninism is more specific and to the point.
It is broad, ML being more concrete still has the lack of being broad, since it tries to cover other historical splits which occurred.
The fact that you are insisting on this discussion and your position is a political statement.
I am just answering comments, simply not ignoring the replies. Since there is also the way to be proven wrong, I don’t see the need to ignore.
You could argue Marx is a continuation of Hegel and call yourself a Hegelian for what it’s worth. Why don’t you call yourself a Hegelian? Why call yourself Marxist at all?
Because there is an important breaking point between Marx and Hegel which also falls into contradiction between each other. So why not Marxist-Leninist? Because in my understanding this would mean, that it simply stops by the later one and is not going beyond this. My collected works of Stalin are even from the soviet “Marx-Engels-Lenin-Stalin” Institute and this to much in my opinion, by simply adding every name. So I came to the conclusion, that ML is not valid term, because it stops at an point, including the absolute importance or Lenin but not what was after that.
So why not Marxist-Leninist? Because in my understanding this would mean, that it simply stops by the later one and is not going beyond this.
Does Marxism stop at Marx? 😒
Hi, I cant continue this discussion any longer, because of some message in a comment somewhere, that I will be muted if I keep engaging. Like, seriously discussing the validity of this term. That’s a pity, since a long comment appeared which tries to explain why my position is wrong, but there is probably not much one can do about it here.
I said myself you’d be muted if you continued, but I take that back. If you want to continue insisting on your flawed reasoning, go ahead.
