FYI “patriarchy” is a gendered term which comes from the Latin, originally meaning “church government by patriarchs” (1560s) and later evolved to mean “society or government by elder males” (1630s). Historically, it referred to autocratic rule by men. More recently it has been expanded in feminist theory which broadly ascribes a set of toxic behaviours to men as a group. The problem with this word is that men don’t have a patent on toxic behaviour. It’s often not men telling other men not to cry and to man up, for example. It’s often the women in our lives, and especially our romantic partners. Raising “patriarchy” in this discussion is tantamount to blaming men for the issues they experience, and this is not helpful to anyone. No more than suggesting rape victims are also victims of the “matriarchy.” If you understand how offensive that might seem to you, you might understand how offensive your comment can be to men.
Pointing out that the history of patriarchy enforced toxic masculinity is not accusing men themselves of enforcing it on an individual level, or dismissing rhe role that women played in enforcing these gender divisions.
Well it is, and you’ve laid out the case. If the system in which we currently live is designed for and by men, then a) they have less of a right to complain about their treatment, b) they have some hand in its creation, and c) have a burden to undo it. In fact, most men have no hand in its creation, have every right to complain, and have no burden to undo it. Raising patriarchy in a discussion about issues men face makes no sense unless you are d) allocating blame in some way, e) suggesting that men have a responsibility to fix their own issues, and/or f) ascribing a certain set of toxic behaviour specifically to men. None of those are helpful. None of those are supportive.
The issue is treating men like a homogenous group instead of specifically addressing those in power, who are both men and women.
What I’m reading from your writing is that both men and women in power have and continue to contribute to gender norms, which confine and hurt both men and women. If so, why use gendered language at all? There is much research and theory in sociology and specifically feminist studies about the impact of gendered language. I’m sure you broadly agree that “man up” is hurtful gendered language because it implies men should conform to a specific set of subjective behaviour. Why can you not see that a gendered male term for a toxic and harmful system is if not explicitly harmful, certainly implicitly so? Why not use a gender neutral germ like “structural gender roles” or something else which doesn’t imply blame? Surely this is not the first time a man has told you he feels offended by your use of this word. Why do you not listen and accept the hurt you cause by your continued use of it instead of just using something less offensive?
Unless, of course, you do intend to imply blame. That men are more to blame. That more men hold power, therefore we should use a gendered word to ensure we are clear who is more to blame.
Men had a lot more power and influence than women, and men continue to have a lot more power and influence. That isn’t applying blame. That is indisputable fact. Men as a group are more responsible for gender inequality than women, because men hold more power than women. Again, indisputable fact.
Some men. A minority of men. You’re doing the thing right now. “Men” isn’t a homogenous group, yet you’re clearly placing them into one. Women aren’t a minority group. How would you react if a woman wrote a post here about being raped, and I started discussing matriarchy, and how women, as a group, tend to act. Surely that would be a terrible thing for me to do, yet here you are, doing just that.
You make it clear that this is about attributing blame. You’ve dedicated multiple paragraphs to blaming men as a group. That’s why you won’t give up the gendered language. This isn’t about helping men at all. It’s about blaming them, even though you acknowledge most of them are not responsible. You must see how that foments anger from men, and how you are perpetuating negative stereotypes and animosity by continuing to use such toxic gendered language.
I think it’s fine to claim that the majority of positions of power are held by men. I think it’s wrong to say that “men” are responsible for bad things. If you’re specific about the bad men (or even better, bad people), no problem. If you broadly refer to men when describing toxic behaviour, you’re blaming people who don’t deserve it. Just like one shouldn’t blame “women” or the “matriarchy” for things either. Surely you agree with that?
FYI “patriarchy” is a gendered term which comes from the Latin, originally meaning “church government by patriarchs” (1560s) and later evolved to mean “society or government by elder males” (1630s). Historically, it referred to autocratic rule by men. More recently it has been expanded in feminist theory which broadly ascribes a set of toxic behaviours to men as a group. The problem with this word is that men don’t have a patent on toxic behaviour. It’s often not men telling other men not to cry and to man up, for example. It’s often the women in our lives, and especially our romantic partners. Raising “patriarchy” in this discussion is tantamount to blaming men for the issues they experience, and this is not helpful to anyone. No more than suggesting rape victims are also victims of the “matriarchy.” If you understand how offensive that might seem to you, you might understand how offensive your comment can be to men.
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Well it is, and you’ve laid out the case. If the system in which we currently live is designed for and by men, then a) they have less of a right to complain about their treatment, b) they have some hand in its creation, and c) have a burden to undo it. In fact, most men have no hand in its creation, have every right to complain, and have no burden to undo it. Raising patriarchy in a discussion about issues men face makes no sense unless you are d) allocating blame in some way, e) suggesting that men have a responsibility to fix their own issues, and/or f) ascribing a certain set of toxic behaviour specifically to men. None of those are helpful. None of those are supportive.
The issue is treating men like a homogenous group instead of specifically addressing those in power, who are both men and women.
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What I’m reading from your writing is that both men and women in power have and continue to contribute to gender norms, which confine and hurt both men and women. If so, why use gendered language at all? There is much research and theory in sociology and specifically feminist studies about the impact of gendered language. I’m sure you broadly agree that “man up” is hurtful gendered language because it implies men should conform to a specific set of subjective behaviour. Why can you not see that a gendered male term for a toxic and harmful system is if not explicitly harmful, certainly implicitly so? Why not use a gender neutral germ like “structural gender roles” or something else which doesn’t imply blame? Surely this is not the first time a man has told you he feels offended by your use of this word. Why do you not listen and accept the hurt you cause by your continued use of it instead of just using something less offensive?
Unless, of course, you do intend to imply blame. That men are more to blame. That more men hold power, therefore we should use a gendered word to ensure we are clear who is more to blame.
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Some men. A minority of men. You’re doing the thing right now. “Men” isn’t a homogenous group, yet you’re clearly placing them into one. Women aren’t a minority group. How would you react if a woman wrote a post here about being raped, and I started discussing matriarchy, and how women, as a group, tend to act. Surely that would be a terrible thing for me to do, yet here you are, doing just that.
You make it clear that this is about attributing blame. You’ve dedicated multiple paragraphs to blaming men as a group. That’s why you won’t give up the gendered language. This isn’t about helping men at all. It’s about blaming them, even though you acknowledge most of them are not responsible. You must see how that foments anger from men, and how you are perpetuating negative stereotypes and animosity by continuing to use such toxic gendered language.
I think it’s fine to claim that the majority of positions of power are held by men. I think it’s wrong to say that “men” are responsible for bad things. If you’re specific about the bad men (or even better, bad people), no problem. If you broadly refer to men when describing toxic behaviour, you’re blaming people who don’t deserve it. Just like one shouldn’t blame “women” or the “matriarchy” for things either. Surely you agree with that?
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managed to make a comment about the damaging aspects of male dominated society into hating women, congrats.