to be honest, as a rider, i always blame myself if i’m in a position to be hit by a car.
you really have to assume everyone is going to do the wrong thing and ride accordingly. it doesn’t matter if someone wasn’t supposed to do something, someone will eventually fail to see you and you’ve got to plan for it. I’ve had near misses but no accidents - and every near miss was a good lesson in what to look for in future. on a bike road rules are nice to know but you have to monitor everything for threats and make sure you’re always in a safe position. if you ride in someone’s blind spot you’re actively putting yourself in danger.
having said that, the op comment is an asshole. YES obviously car drivers should be more aware. what the fuck? if you’re obliviously running people off the road you don’t blame them, good lord what a fucking psycho.
There’s a distinction between being cautious and always being at fault. Of course you should always be extra cautious as a rider, but that doesn’t mean it’s your fault if a car flattens you.
Oh I agree, it’s more a mental attitude - if I take on the risk of riding, I need to take on the responsibility of anticipating what other road users might do. If I end up in an accident part of that is failing to fully anticipate the stupid, illegal shit car drivers constantly do that will kill you.
Sure, the guy who turning right across two lanes in front of me was at fault, but I had the opportunity to spot him slowing down to make the turn and I know cars don’t always see bikes or indicate. I can move to the outside of the road to give myself more space, I can roll off and cover the brake, and then I can accelerate as soon as I can to get past them quickly so I’m out of danger.
If I do none of those things and don’t notice the car, I consider myself at fault even if the car was doing something illegal.
After the fact of course you can say the car driver was at fault but it’s completely academic when you’re dead, so before that happens you need to take on as much responsibility as possible.
Somebody else shared stats that show about half the accidents involving motorcycles don’t involve any other vehicles. So it’s not quite victim blaming in this case.
I can’t stand it when people jump to the “victim-blaming” conclusion; anyone can be the victim, just depends on how you look at it plus it avoids actually responding to the argument
No, I’m saying it’s weird to ask everyone to care more about someone’s health and safety than that person does.
Motorcycles aren’t as safe as cars, even if everyone is careful. Accidents happen, and cars have seatbelts, airbags, and a shit ton of other modern inventions.
Motorcycles have helmets and leather jackets, both of which aren’t required everywhere so motorcyclists don’t even wear them all the time.
If you cared about motorcyclists, I’d think this time would be better spent trying to make motorcycles safer by pushing for legislation.
Hell, they made those inflatable cocoons that go off like a giant airbag years ago. I’ve never seen one on the road, because they’re not “cool”. And if someone values safety over coolness, they wouldn’t be on a motorcycle at first
There’s a difference between what is fair and what is common sense. If I had a daughter I would love to tell her she should go wherever she wants, whenever she wants, alone or drunk.
In practice I’m sure I’ll temper that message with some sad but realistic advice about having a friend on the phone while in the cab and never accepting drinks from strangers.
Motorcycle riders choose to put themselves in a much much more vulnerable state, so they have to be more aware and more vigilant. In an ideal world everyone is paying attention and awake and sober on the road, reality is different and I won’t be betting my life on everyone around me driving correctly while riding a petrol tank strapped to a motor.
This is the nuance that givesomefucks failed to express.
Long term motorcyclists are aware of the choice they have made.
That doesn’t abrogate other drivers of their own responsibility.
but, won’t car drivers being more aware help? if that’s a big factor, wouldn’t it be good to address?
if i’m reading this right, you don’t think car drivers should have to worry if they’re going to kill someone, because you think that person deserves it due to the risk they personally took on?
you think it’s too much to expect someone driving a safer vehicle to drive safely and not kill other people? you resent being told to pay basic attention while driving a car because if you hit someone that isn’t also in a car, they might die and that pisses you off?
You seem to be saying that we should worry about making motorcyclists do safer things instead of making car drivers do safer things… which doesn’t help too much because wearing a leather jacket or even a helmet will be small comfort when you’re run over by an inattentive person in a two ton death machine.
If it’s known that cars are less manoeuvrable and have poorer sight lines, why do motorcyclists insist on gunning it past cars and swerving into the next lane before they’ve fully cleared the car they’re trying to overtake. Not to mention the constant overtaking from the left, which is a completely moronic thing to do. If they’re weaving in and out of traffic rather than just staying in their lane and spot, they’re far less likely to sneak up on a car unawares and get hit.
Yeah, thats quite true. Thats a pretty irresbonsible way to ride.
The main cause of collisions between cars and motorcycles is right-of-way violations, when a car turns right across traffic without looking to see if a motorcycle is oncoming.
The second cause is right-of-way violations, when a car pulls left onto the roadway without looking to see if a motorcycle is oncoming.
Both of these result in a head-on collision that is very diffcult to avoid. It’s the reason why the campaigns focus on “look twice”.
These two car violations are also the leading cause of cyclist and pedestrian death and injury.
Crash between two motorcycles is such an edge case it doesn’t even matter. Car hitting a motorcycle is the leading cause of death and ijury for motorcycle. The person operating the machine most capable of killing others is responsible for not killing others
But if we all rode motorcycles, this wouldn’t be an edge case; we would all be less safe. Thus, if everyone drove cars we would be safer. Safe cars can be had second hand for cheap, hence it is the choice of the rider to forego safety when riding a motorcycle. I’m not saying it’s unreasonable to ask that car drivers stay aware of motorcycles, but to make them wholly responsible for the safety of motorcyclists is ridiculous
thats a reduction of the topic beyond whats reasonable. I did not say that motrcyclists were not responsible for their own safety. What I have said is that car drivers are also responsible for rider safety.
Motorcycles are most dangerous to the operator, the operator must take responsibility for their safety.
Cars are most dangerous to everyone who is not the operator, therefore the operator is responsible for their safety too.
Did you read the article? It’s primarily aimed at motorcycle riders and states that rider behaviour is a large contributor to crashes. It urges motorcyclists to slow down and stay attentive, watch for hazards (vehicles and road conditions), keep an eye on traffic that might pull out onto the road in front of you. Seems all reasonable stuff to me.
It’s only the last section that’s mentions the need for drivers to be careful. And even then it’s only “please take a second look” which is always good advice. Always check twice so you don’t pull out and hit a motorcycle (or bicyclist, or pedestrian!) that was blocked from your view by the A-pillar when you glanced at traffic.
It’s weird there’s always calls for drivers to be more careful, but not the people making the choice to ride an unsafe vehicle.
Like wearing stilts to a moshpit and asking everyone else to be more careful and attentive.
Yeah, they should be considerate. But at the end of the day, you should be the one that cares most about your personal safety.
Nice victim blaming. Most motorcyclist deaths are due to them being hit by cars, but it’s their fault you’re saying?
to be honest, as a rider, i always blame myself if i’m in a position to be hit by a car.
you really have to assume everyone is going to do the wrong thing and ride accordingly. it doesn’t matter if someone wasn’t supposed to do something, someone will eventually fail to see you and you’ve got to plan for it. I’ve had near misses but no accidents - and every near miss was a good lesson in what to look for in future. on a bike road rules are nice to know but you have to monitor everything for threats and make sure you’re always in a safe position. if you ride in someone’s blind spot you’re actively putting yourself in danger.
having said that, the op comment is an asshole. YES obviously car drivers should be more aware. what the fuck? if you’re obliviously running people off the road you don’t blame them, good lord what a fucking psycho.
There’s a distinction between being cautious and always being at fault. Of course you should always be extra cautious as a rider, but that doesn’t mean it’s your fault if a car flattens you.
Oh I agree, it’s more a mental attitude - if I take on the risk of riding, I need to take on the responsibility of anticipating what other road users might do. If I end up in an accident part of that is failing to fully anticipate the stupid, illegal shit car drivers constantly do that will kill you.
Sure, the guy who turning right across two lanes in front of me was at fault, but I had the opportunity to spot him slowing down to make the turn and I know cars don’t always see bikes or indicate. I can move to the outside of the road to give myself more space, I can roll off and cover the brake, and then I can accelerate as soon as I can to get past them quickly so I’m out of danger.
If I do none of those things and don’t notice the car, I consider myself at fault even if the car was doing something illegal.
After the fact of course you can say the car driver was at fault but it’s completely academic when you’re dead, so before that happens you need to take on as much responsibility as possible.
Somebody else shared stats that show about half the accidents involving motorcycles don’t involve any other vehicles. So it’s not quite victim blaming in this case.
I can’t stand it when people jump to the “victim-blaming” conclusion; anyone can be the victim, just depends on how you look at it plus it avoids actually responding to the argument
No, I’m saying it’s weird to ask everyone to care more about someone’s health and safety than that person does.
Motorcycles aren’t as safe as cars, even if everyone is careful. Accidents happen, and cars have seatbelts, airbags, and a shit ton of other modern inventions.
Motorcycles have helmets and leather jackets, both of which aren’t required everywhere so motorcyclists don’t even wear them all the time.
If you cared about motorcyclists, I’d think this time would be better spent trying to make motorcycles safer by pushing for legislation.
Hell, they made those inflatable cocoons that go off like a giant airbag years ago. I’ve never seen one on the road, because they’re not “cool”. And if someone values safety over coolness, they wouldn’t be on a motorcycle at first
Now do “provocatively dressed women are asking to be raped…”
There’s a difference between what is fair and what is common sense. If I had a daughter I would love to tell her she should go wherever she wants, whenever she wants, alone or drunk.
In practice I’m sure I’ll temper that message with some sad but realistic advice about having a friend on the phone while in the cab and never accepting drinks from strangers.
Motorcycle riders choose to put themselves in a much much more vulnerable state, so they have to be more aware and more vigilant. In an ideal world everyone is paying attention and awake and sober on the road, reality is different and I won’t be betting my life on everyone around me driving correctly while riding a petrol tank strapped to a motor.
This is the nuance that givesomefucks failed to express.
Long term motorcyclists are aware of the choice they have made.
That doesn’t abrogate other drivers of their own responsibility.
Oh wow, slippery slope?
People are just busting out the classics today, aren’t they?
but, won’t car drivers being more aware help? if that’s a big factor, wouldn’t it be good to address?
if i’m reading this right, you don’t think car drivers should have to worry if they’re going to kill someone, because you think that person deserves it due to the risk they personally took on?
you think it’s too much to expect someone driving a safer vehicle to drive safely and not kill other people? you resent being told to pay basic attention while driving a car because if you hit someone that isn’t also in a car, they might die and that pisses you off?
wtf?
Well that’s the thing, you don’t seem like you are…
And I don’t think I’m going to help you understand, sorry
You seem to be saying that we should worry about making motorcyclists do safer things instead of making car drivers do safer things… which doesn’t help too much because wearing a leather jacket or even a helmet will be small comfort when you’re run over by an inattentive person in a two ton death machine.
Motorcycle: 600 pounds, very good sight lines, ability to hear surroundings, maneuverable around obstacles
Car: over 2000 pounds, poor sight lines, poor stopping and maneuverabilty, lots of distractions.
motorcycles are more dangerous to the operator
cars are more dangarous to other road users
If it’s known that cars are less manoeuvrable and have poorer sight lines, why do motorcyclists insist on gunning it past cars and swerving into the next lane before they’ve fully cleared the car they’re trying to overtake. Not to mention the constant overtaking from the left, which is a completely moronic thing to do. If they’re weaving in and out of traffic rather than just staying in their lane and spot, they’re far less likely to sneak up on a car unawares and get hit.
That is entirely on them.
Yeah, thats quite true. Thats a pretty irresbonsible way to ride.
The main cause of collisions between cars and motorcycles is right-of-way violations, when a car turns right across traffic without looking to see if a motorcycle is oncoming.
The second cause is right-of-way violations, when a car pulls left onto the roadway without looking to see if a motorcycle is oncoming.
Both of these result in a head-on collision that is very diffcult to avoid. It’s the reason why the campaigns focus on “look twice”.
These two car violations are also the leading cause of cyclist and pedestrian death and injury.
I reckon you’re still more likely to walk away from a crash between two cars than one between two motorcycles
Crash between two motorcycles is such an edge case it doesn’t even matter. Car hitting a motorcycle is the leading cause of death and ijury for motorcycle. The person operating the machine most capable of killing others is responsible for not killing others
But if we all rode motorcycles, this wouldn’t be an edge case; we would all be less safe. Thus, if everyone drove cars we would be safer. Safe cars can be had second hand for cheap, hence it is the choice of the rider to forego safety when riding a motorcycle. I’m not saying it’s unreasonable to ask that car drivers stay aware of motorcycles, but to make them wholly responsible for the safety of motorcyclists is ridiculous
thats a reduction of the topic beyond whats reasonable. I did not say that motrcyclists were not responsible for their own safety. What I have said is that car drivers are also responsible for rider safety.
Motorcycles are most dangerous to the operator, the operator must take responsibility for their safety.
Cars are most dangerous to everyone who is not the operator, therefore the operator is responsible for their safety too.
https://www.mcsweeneys.net/articles/youre-a-cyclist-who-was-just-struck-by-a-car-driver-heres-why-it-was-your-fault
Ok…
Did you read the article? It’s primarily aimed at motorcycle riders and states that rider behaviour is a large contributor to crashes. It urges motorcyclists to slow down and stay attentive, watch for hazards (vehicles and road conditions), keep an eye on traffic that might pull out onto the road in front of you. Seems all reasonable stuff to me.
It’s only the last section that’s mentions the need for drivers to be careful. And even then it’s only “please take a second look” which is always good advice. Always check twice so you don’t pull out and hit a motorcycle (or bicyclist, or pedestrian!) that was blocked from your view by the A-pillar when you glanced at traffic.
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Almost like concern for the people around you is the ultimate issue, and not how much armor you wear around yourself.
You do still get the occasional beer spilt on you though.