What the title says. Well intentioned, often other “neurodivergent” people look at your life, your autism, and say: “you should mask harder.”
For example, I accidentally said something that offended a friend. Won’t go into detail, but it was me unintentionally coming off as arrogant, not something bad like a slur or hate speech.
I asked for advice (elsewhere) and the advice was universally, “you see, NT avoid this topic at all costs. Going forwards, know it is best to avoid this topic.”
But isn’t this just saying “mask harder and be more palatable for everyone else”?
Every piece of “autism advice” I see even in “neurodivergent friendly” communities is basically “how to be less autistic.”
Yes and no. The advice you received in particular is just as valid for neurotypical people. Knowing what is okay to talk about in different contexts is a learned behavior, not something that comes naturally to everyone.
However it is also true that a lot of advice is just ‘mask harder’ because… It’s really the only thing you can do. You can’t control other people and institutional change is slow, so the only option is to affect what you can affect and that will be yourself.
The difference is on WHY you’re doing things. Masking is toxic if you’re doing it to please other people or because it feels unsafe otherwise.
But adopting different ways of communicating depending on the context is not masking, it’s how language works. Nobody speaks to their boyfriend the same way they speak to their Christian grandmother or the same way they talk in Xbox Live .
you see, NT avoid this topic at all costs
I don’t think this is a NT vs Autism thing. There are topics that, depending on the environment, are taboo and not to be discussed. Figuring out these rules is confusing (or at least, not automatic) for Autistic peeps, but actually following the rules is something both NT and autistic people must do. Whether or not you call it masking, it’s still something that both groups are subjected to.
Rules are easy for my autistic self, it’s when the rules are pointless, never explained, and enforced purely on vibe. For instance, as a rule you should always rinse and brush away as much of the gunk on dishes before putting them in the dishwasher. This isn’t hard to understand or follow for me, it makes perfect sense. Now if the rule is to “read the room” ok, cool that’s not specific, it has no clear goal, it’s entirely vague. But it’s also against reading the room to ask about reading the room and when asked NT people can’t generally explain the structure to the rule.
“Read the room” is not a rule. “Read the room” is a skill of knowing how the people in the room are feeling.
The rule that skill serves is, “don’t say things that people in the room can’t handle hearing right now”
Obvious example: avoid chattering happily about your recent raise in front of people who are miserable they just got laid off.
Usually, people dismissively saying “read the room” mean, “I know that you are capable of feeling and understanding other people’s emotions, would you please fucking pay attention to that skill right now?” (This is plenty common even for not-autistic people) But of course for autistic people that assumption is just incorrect. People saying that to autistic people need to read the room.
I’m sorry but I completely disagree, read the room is entirely a rule. If you think social expectations are merely skills and not rules then idk where to really take this because society, socializing, it’s all rules of which skill can allow you to bend and sometimes break. For instance it’s against the rules to be happy at a funeral, even if you’re happy but if you’re socially skilled you can manage it.
I think you’re getting stuck on people saying “read the room” not all the unspoken rules that ND people have to navigate simply because not doing it is rude. If I get asked “how are you” and I reply “I don’t know why I’m alive anymore” I am considered an asshole not the person asking questions they don’t want answers to. I have to follow the unspoken rules that they don’t really give a fuck about me, they don’t care how I’m doing, and that I need to lie even if I’m uncomfortable with it because they forced me to.
I would argue that it’s moreso that there are many more specific and clear social rules, but most people don’t know how to explain them, so when asked, they just say “read the room”. As another person said, it might also be a reminder or shorthand of something that you are assumed to already know intuitively.
I think part of the skill is tone, which is kinda dumb since the truth you communicate is basically the same. Even so, something like “I don’t know why I’m alive anymore” might be considered rude while something like “eh” or “not great” or “same as usual” (hopefully that’s not your usual) or even something like “well, I’ve been a bit overwhelmed by current events recently” would generally not be seen as rude. You can still say something that’s true; you just have to soften things. It would be easier if the softening was not necessary, but as people have gotten at earlier, you have more power to change yourself that to change how the rest of the world reacts to things.
I’m not diagnosed autistic or any other form of neurodivergent. To the day if someone asks “how are you?” I might give a real answer. “Not good, my cat is sick and I’m worried he might be dying” was one I gave last year, to a food service worker. He gave me a discount that day, acknowledged that that doesn’t make it better but he did something to show he saw me and we have been a lot more friendly since then.
I don’t dump on him every time I see him, because I genuinely have good days, but he lights up when he sees me, and that makes me happy too.
No you shouldn’t rinse and brush as much off as possible, it undermines the environmental benefits of using the dishwasher to save water. The dishes and dishwasher will be fine.
Yes brush or scrape as much as possible, that does save water. Does not need rinse and can save that water.
I don’t see how it can’t be a NT vs autism thing.
They’re only taboo subjects because society (primarily NTs) decided they were taboo.
Autistic people have to follow the rules set by NTs, not the other way around.
They’re only taboo subjects because society (primarily NTs) decided they were taboo.
Autistic people have to follow the rules set by NTs, not the other way around.
I’m 50/50 on this.
People running a social scene (generally NTs) set the cadence, yes.
Thoughts/questions/ponderings:
- Do autistic people, as individuals, not have rules in their own head about how people should interact with them?
- Are there not rules that both autistic peeps and NTs have in common?
- In social groups composed entirely of autistic people, would another set of norms emerge that could get someone in the group scolded if they broke them, just like in the rest of society?
- When a NT person upsets an autistic person because they broke a norm they weren’t familiar with, wouldn’t they also feel bad and try to remember not to do that in the future?
Some taboos exist for good reason and apply across the board. We don’t greet strangers by asking them how their genitals are feeling, for example (although that would be hilarious).
I think I agree with Savvy more.
- Do autistic people, as individuals, not have rules in their own head about how people should interact with them?
I’m sure most do, but it’s far more likely for their rules to be ignored/overridden if they don’t fit in with society’s idea of normal.
For example, an autistic person who does not like being touched is more likely to be seen as the “problem” than someone who tries to shake their hand or give them a hug. People who are close to them will probably learn to respect to that individual’s personal rules, but NTs seem to less adaptable to social change, particularly if it’s inconvenient to them.
Are there not rules that both autistic peeps and NTs have in common?
Definitely, but a lot of them exist for good reasons. I suppose I’m talking more about the seemingly arbitrary rules here.
In social groups composed entirely of autistic people, would another set of norms emerge that could get someone in the group scolded if they broke them, just like in the rest of society?
In my experience there just generally seem to be fewer “global” rules, but when rules are broken people get over it more quickly.
When a NT person upsets an autistic person because they broke a norm they weren’t familiar with, wouldn’t they also feel bad and try to remember not to do that in the future?
I guess this depends on the person, but that applies to everyone, not just NTs.
Do autistic people, as individuals, not have rules in their own head about how people should interact with them?
Autistic people generally have either far fewer than allistics or if they have some kind of social obsession potentially they have a whole world of rules of their own that even allistics will struggle with.
But yeah generally, in my own case: 1) Don’t be irrationally or sadistically mean.
That’s basically it. You can be irrational/strange around me and at most I’ll be surprised due it being unexpected and my “mask software” wont have a response to load and I’ll freeze up for a bit. You can even be mean if there is sufficient justification for it. Maybe I fucked up bad.
Now, “being mean” a fairly broad category and I have specific obsessive silos of topics I don’t want broken, but that’s on the basis of a “info hazard”. Mainly: discussions of poop or story spoilers. But if someone ends up breaking those “Rules” I don’t hold it against them because they could not have known that I have a severe aversion to both of those things, I just warn them and move on.
In social groups composed entirely of autistic people, would another set of norms emerge that could get someone in the group scolded if they broke them, just like in the rest of society?
Yes but they’d probably be documented, FAQ’d, etc. Autistic people would tell rule violators to RTFM.
When a NT person upsets an autistic person because they broke a norm they weren’t familiar with, wouldn’t they also feel bad and try to remember not to do that in the future?
If the autistic person got upset at the person for breaking a norm the allistic was unfamiliar with they’d be being unfair assuming there was no good reason for them to have known in the first place.
Some taboos exist for good reason and apply across the board. We don’t greet strangers by asking them how their genitals are feeling, for example (although that would be hilarious).
I unironically would be pretty comfortable in a society that did that. At worst I’d probably be confused by why this was the thing people asked about but if I encountered a society that did such and I learned that as a common greeting I’d settle in fine.
When I was young (late 1970s), “How’s it hangin’?” was actually a common greeting. Not usually to strangers, granted, but pretty common.
Thanks for the answers/breakdown!
That last line reminds me of Goku patting people’s genitals in DB to determine their gender lmao
As a non autistic person, we too are thought to fit in since childhood and do learn to wear social masks. It’s not something exclusive to autistic people, but I guess you guys have a harder time learning to do it.
Moderate your behavior in public and respect other people is a conscious effort until it becomes “natural”.
Just remember respect is a two way street, and everybody usually is trying to play their role.
I deliberately started masking less, and 6 months later my wife left me.
This should hopefully demonstrate that masking comes with serious costs, including misleading people who will come to think your mask is who you really are and possibly even come to love that fake person.
It turned out we could only live together when we were both masking and medicated.
When she went off her meds to get pregnant, it fell apart fast.
Still hurts, but it was the right decision.I know you’re not asking, but since you bring it up, I’d like to mention that I’m opposed to human reproduction. I hope everyone here considering creating humans will give equal consideration to adopting them.
Unfortunately the world isn’t made for us and doesn’t understand — or want to understand — us. The only thing we have the ability to change is ourselves. It’s tiring and overwhelming and stupid, but using logic to cater to others emotional irrationality is just something we have to do to survive.
Yes, “mask harder” is a bad suggestion, but it’s the only one we have the power to do anything about. 😞
Well intentioned, often other “neurodivergent” people look at your life, your autism, and say: “you should mask harder.”
Yeah pretty much, right? But is any other advice possible?
“Here’s how to appear less autistic” is really the only usable piece of info when the problem is “I’m autistic and that’s never going to change but it sometimes causes problems”.
“Learn how to politely say Fuck you deal with it it’s definitely going to happen again” is the only other realistic option but that strategy is only effective in limited contexts.
I do generally notice that, though I don’t necessarily agree that trying to treat others well is masking versus just choosing polite conversation.
Where’s the line? I’m rude because I don’t pick up on social cues…that’s literally what I am diagnosed with.
“I think depressed people just need to be happier to avoid depression”
Learning how to pick up social cues in a rote way instead of an imitative way, essentially, is a treatment. I mean, I know it’s hard to pick up on norms and mores naturalistically with autism, and we should all be graceful and respectful of that as well. Just you know, if someone says something is rude or hurtful, that’s not an attack on your inability to judge that social situation by default…it is information. Even NT do impose expectations on other NT behavior across settings that is sometimes incomprehensible.
Specifically, that’s a Symptomatic treatment. It doesn’t fix autism or make you less autistic, but can sometimes help you meet life goals.
There is no objective line, but if your actions result in your friends getting hurt that is sad, and if your friends decide not to hang out with you because of the chances you’ll hurt them again that is a fair choice. You may choose not to put effort into understanding other people’s perspectives but this means most people with healthy boundaries will either get hurt at some point and leave, or recognize that is bound to happen and leave pre-emptively. So if you want friends that treat you right or a partner who isn’t miserable, then you will have to put effort into understanding other people’s perspectives.
Your friend was offended for a reason. People assume you care why or how to avoid it because that is a necessary part of any healthy friendship. If you do not care, then I hope your friend finds friends that do care so they, at least, can be happy. I also hope that you have friends and you are happy, but an unhealthy friendship does not make you happy and it barely counts as friendship anyway.
The situation really wasn’t as bad as I made it out to be. I was just talking about how I was doing in a course and my friend got jealous because I am doing much better. I didn’t brag, just like “Oh I did great on the exam”
But apparently GPA and pay are two things you can never discuss with anyone….for some reason.
Ah, well, so as you know we live in an exploitative capitalist hellscape where our humanity is ground down until we’re depressed cogs in a machine that doesn’t even produce profit efficiently but which makes those that own the machine feel good because they have so many people under their control. But if you discuss this in public then those that own the machine or the sycophants who want to win their favor to end up in a better position in the machine get mad at you, so most people have resigned themselves to spending most of their lives being a cog in the machine.
This results in two emotional dynamics. Firstly, people are afraid of angering the sycophants of the machine. Secondly, people want to keep some parts of themselves safe from the scouring force of the machine that seeks to make them smoother-running cogs.
The first is mostly important when discussing pay in a like-for-like situation. If you discuss your pay with coworkers in the same company or the same job title, that undermines the power of the employer, so the employer wants to find ways to punish that. That sort of punishment is illegal in many jurisdictions, but it’s hard to enforce and hard to prove, so effectively employers can get away with a lot of punishment. This means that employees that fear that punishment will avoid discussing pay and get mad at you if you do, which would risk implicating them.
The second is more relevant when it comes with the situation with your friend. Exam results are a feedback mechanism to turn you into a cog in the machine. You learn to think in the way they want their cogs to think, and people that learn to think that way most efficiently get put in positions where their thinking perpetuates the system of oppression. And like any good feedback mechanism, they are enforced with rewards and punishments and the promise of more rewards for continued loyalty.
People who struggle at tests are expected to sacrifice their humanity to score better. To give up social development, physical fitness, joy, friendships, exploration, curiosity, time with family and love to work for a system that will grind their souls into dust if they let it. Yet every system and most adults in their environment tell them this is the right choice, and there are usually-false promises of financial security and a roof over your head and respite if only you work a little harder for the next little while. This makes it all so tempting to ignore your own boundaries.
Most people give in to the system partially, becoming cogs for most of their lives, but they still know what is being taken from them and they still try to hold on to what humanity they can. They carry that resentment even if they never consciously thought about the structural issues that produced it or the greater political context. And then you come in with your better grade, proudly announcing that you’re the physical embodiment of what the system blames them for not being. So of course they feel envy and resentment towards you, because in that moment you’re doing what the system wants you to do to scrape away a little more of their humanity.
And this same logic of resentment applies to comparing pay in an unlike situation.
This means that if you want your relationship with your friends to be healthy, beneficial, and enjoyable for the both of you, you only talk about pay or grades in a carefully established emotionally and socially safe zone that mitigates much of the harm that would occur if you just talked about it when it seems relevant.
Neurotypicals of course communicate most of this through emotional subtext. A neurotypical who says “You should never discuss grades with anyone” means that you need such a safe zone. They might establish such a safe zone through a display of shame and vulnerability and seeing whether their conversational partner fulfills their part in the social ritual by making assurances and offering warm support. Even without the neurotypical subtext display, creating a safe zone is necessary, though; everyone has feelings and mental schemas.
I basically made masking a hyperfixation for a while, until I had a good enough grasp of NT social interaction that I could drop the mask more and more. Then I just came across as cool, confident, and interesting when I was doing my own thing. It’s kind of a “Learn the rules so you can break them” situation. NT conventions aren’t really all that complicated if you devote a bit of time to study. If you can steer your fixations at all, it’s worth the investment so you can get on with your life with fewer interruptions.
I asked for advice (elsewhere) and the advice was universally, “you see, NT avoid this topic at all costs. Going forwards, know it is best to avoid this topic.”
I don’t think of that as masking actually. NTs run into the “said something they shouldn’t have” error quite a lot… i think of that as just learning new social nuance. If social interactions are like kayaking in ooen water, this is the equivalent of bumping (gently) into a wall that was already there, but being given instructions to mask more is like them putting down barriers to reduce the amount of water you have available to maneuver in.
But I do think in your example that the best course would be for NTs to just be more aware of and accepting of ND saying things they consider weird. Would be the most efficient course of action and is more of a solution than “Add this to the mental list of things you can’t talk about!”
Don’t mask harder 🙅♂️
Mask smarter 👍
It’s not “mask harder” - it is “don’t be autistic”.
Lol sob 😭
“You need to learn to say no, because you are working well beyond your capacity and you need to take care of yourself”
Literally every time I say no it’s seen as the beginning of a negotiation. I’m not being vague either. “Here is some data. I don’t have time to review it with you today. Have a look and we’ll discuss next week.” Somehow that is interpreted as “Waltz into my office right now and ask about the data”
Or “I am not looking after that, go speak to (other engineer)” becomes 'Potato is handling it"
And like, these people are peers at best. They aren’t trying to politely tell me I’m not doing my job or something.
The absolute worst is “I’m going to need to sit with the info you gave me before I can respond” becomes them just repeating themselves or trying to tell me what my response might be. Or when I say “I actually can’t remember, but I can look it up” becomes them guessing. Not only have they completely ignored what I said to them, I’m now 100% checked out and every last drop of executive function is gone.
Wait. That was meant to be with well intentions?
What else is there to do when people don’t accommodate?
Yep, that’s why I only choose to hang out with other neurodivergent people or people who are willing to treat ND people’s needs as at least as important as their more toxic social norms.
Public interactions you have to conform to survive, but personal connections are your choice.
their more toxic social norms
I wouldn’t say politeness and tact are toxic.
The problem is that the rules for being “polite” and “tactful” are seemingly arbitrary and impossible to understand.
I know there are facial expressions you are supposed to make in certain situations to make your words work as polite, but I cannot consistently figure out how to do it.
I’m sure this is an inappropriate question, but out of curiosity, are you a man or a woman?
I’m just always curious with this because women are typically diagnosed later or not at all because women figure out masking earlier and better.
I wonder if it’s purely self preservation on the part of women or if women are more explicit in social rules with one another?
I am a man.
I think I might be agender though. I find gender roles as confusing and arbitrary as all the other social rules.
As an autistic woman, it’s been self preservation for me. Other non autistic women have not been explicit about the rules. Quite the opposite lol.
What counts as “politeness” is meaningless. For example, it’s stupid that we aren’t “allowed” to discuss pay.
Who counts discussion of salary as something impolite? It’s the first time I (NT) hear about it.
I’ve heard that. It may differ depending on culture. Some see it as bragging. In some places it’s illegal to discuss in the workplace.
i wouldnt say you know what youre talking about
That was toxic.
Help me understand.
What is not toxic to you:
- A person has a disability which makes task x difficult to perform.
- Everyone agrees that this person has this disability and that this disability makes it hard to perform task x
- If they try to perform task x they may not understand they are doing it incorrectly, again because of the disability that everyone agrees is real and this person has.
- no one is expected to create an environment where task x is made easier
- when this person fails at task x, it is treated as a moral failing
- inability to perform task x puts access to fundamental needs at risk
What is toxic:
- being told that you do not understand the experience that someone is trying to express
Is this accurate?
