For years, I’d debated whether residential solar would make sense for my home. The math never quite clicked, and I refused to go into debt by signing a $30,000 contract or leasing agreement with a door-to-door solar sales company. It wasn’t until the end of 2025 that the market finally forced my hand.
The combination of a steady, upcoming increase in electricity rates, the impending January 1, 2026, expiration of federal tax rebate incentives, and battery tech actually improving in recent years made a far-off “maybe one day” dream into an achievable DIY project. The announcement that a new hyper-scale data center was going in a few towns over made the decision to finally jump in a no-brainer.
Many of my tinkering projects are driven by curiosity. I like to see if I can accomplish a goal without paying as much as expected, and I’m admittedly motivated by the feeling of getting away with an unexpected hack. Channeling a little ingenuity and effort feels like an arrogant middle finger at being told what I have to buy, and nowhere was that feeling more satisfying than in this solar project. If you’ve been thinking similarly about making the leap to solar power, I know how intimidating it can be. But in my experience, the squeeze was well worth the juice I got in return.
Some thoughts from a solar fan boy who knows more about finance than electronics.
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The average time to pay off solar panels (7-12 years) is still longer than the average time most first time home owners will keep their homes (at least before 2015). So it’s still not as viable an option for a lot of people who plan on selling within 10 years.
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There is less home ownership overall. More of us are renting with no incentive for these installs.
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If these systems could be reasonably relocated and reinstalled, that would probably shift the financial equation drastically.
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How close are we to solar breakthroughs in materials/production that might incentivize waiting?
edit: I’m not saying solar isn’t viable. Just using my experience in mortgage financing to add more context to the conversation.
Balcony Solar Systems are the answer. You can literally plug it into your power plug. And unplug if you move somewhere. ROI is around 5 years. You can even use it for your camper if you buy a inverter-battery-combined system.
Drawback: It is reduced in Wattage (around 2kwp) and will reduce your bill just slightly. (Mine around 30€ each month). You likely won‘t install the panels on your roof and need a different place for it.
I have solar already and can’t wait to buy some balcony solar panels
I’ve got a gazebo that’d be perfect to mount them on, and since my system has a house-backup battery I think it’d be a massive benefit for me (for the price)
My whole system is 3.2 kWh so a 1.2 kWh system would be a huge boost on the cheap. I think I could get at least 800w out of it with positioning so I could basically use my AC for a lot longer
I recommend to buy a inverter-battery-combination which I have. It stores all the generated power (up to 4 panels possible with 2,4kwp max at all) while you can infuse 800 watt only maximum (Germany). The reduction is a safety for the power wires.
In my setup, I harvest 1,8kwh in my battery until afternoon while constantly providing 150w into my house grid. This often reaches until 4am morning. My base consumption with electronics standby is around 220w even in the deepest night. So, I don’t deliver the peaks but a steady base stream.
Without the battery combi, you can only provide up to 800w as long as the sun shines. If your power demand is low at this time, it delivers just this low power.
I think it’d be redundant to get another battery when my whole house is already on a battery
I’d love more storage capacity (only at ~9.5 kWh currently) but I don’t think it’s worth getting additional capacity unless the price is reallllllly good
Yes and no. The bottleneck is the reduction of 800w for the Balcony System inverter. It won’t give you more, even with 4 panels attached.
The inverter-battery-combi circumvents the reduction as all the extra power is stored in the included battery and transferred slowly into the house grid with said 800w.
If you can wire the inverter directly to the battery pack through DC, this is your way. But don’t ask me how to do this.
Oh dang really? I didn’t realize that was a problem.
Good call out then thank you
I run some small panels to power garden pumps and LEDs but they’re not connected to my house. Every bit helps but the challenge with balcony solar is that they’re not legal in many places. In Canada our electric code requires everything be connected to the breaker box so that electricians can work safely knowing there is no current in the building.
Strata’s also often require panels on railings be mounted flush, facing sideways instead of angled upwards.
On that note, given where most balcony solar would be installed; changing strata bylaws to allow balcony shades and air drying laundry would arguably reduce our energy costs significantly more than what energy solar panels on railings could harvest.
I don’t know your local laws and current setup, but Balcony Solar typically aren‘t standalone setups.
That means they need the frequency signal of your power current - 50hz in Germany. Without this they do not work. This is a safety measure to protect electricians while working.
Or put it differently: If you take off the power plug, you are safe to touch this power plug. There is no power on it because of the missing frequency signal (within 5ms it’s off, I think).
So called Island Systems work without the frequency signal only. They provide power even in a black out situation. Balcony Solar does not in gerneral.
the challenge with balcony solar is that they’re not legal in many places
That’s indeed a good point, which is why we should keep the pressure on it. We can already see some campaigns forming around its legalization in some provinces, as seen here. If you haven’t already, sign the petition while you’re at it
There are some great resources there, so I’ll just copy some relevant information in case someone is interested:
So why can’t you buy one in Canada?
It isn’t dangerous and it isn’t banned. There just isn’t a Canadian rulebook for it yet. Canada’s own safety body has said these little plug-in systems fall outside its current rules, and the good news is that rulebook is finally being written. In January 2026 the country’s standards council started the process of adopting a national plug-in-solar safety standard
Here’s how we change it.
Canada needs two simple things. A safety stamp that says these systems are good to go, ideally a Canadian one rather than a borrowed one. And a plain rule that lets people plug a certified one in without a permit or a pile of utility paperwork. Both are already moving. Germany has plugged in more than a million of them, and Utah made it legal on a vote with nobody against. What gets it over the line here is enough of us asking.
It’s safe, it’s proven, and it works everywhere it’s allowed.
The part your missing is why it’s illegal. Canadian electric code requires everything to go through the breaker box so that electricians can know there is no current in the building.
So even if the rules are changed this introduces installation costs that could be prohibitive.
A safety stamp that says these systems are good to go
Of which there are current zero devices registered for legal sale in Canada, because of the code issues prescribed above.
It’s safe, it’s proven, and it works everywhere it’s allowed.
The problem is that plug in balcony solar is not considered safe according to our electrical code.
Plus any situation where they make balcony solar accessible will inherently mean rooftop solar becomes availabe and is clearly the more cost effective option.
Is it illegal or is it not legalized? I think there might be a big difference between those two. Rules and codes can and do change all the time. Just look at UL 3700, which carries the ANSI/CAN/UL designation, signaling Canadian applicability.
It might be even easier now that Canada is getting closer to the EU for it to follow some of their standards as well, like their plug in solar regulatory framework, specially seen that Canada is also a member of IEC (International Electrotechnical Commission), which also covers solar energy
Plus any situation where they make balcony solar accessible will inherently mean rooftop solar becomes availabe and is clearly the more cost effective option.
Keep in mind there are different situations that would greatly benefit from it, like those living in apartments, renters, or where replacing their roof structure for solar panels is more expensive than upgrading a circuit for plug in solar. The market is there, we just need to give it a push by making it legal
I got solar this year and am selling. The cost has directly increased the value of my home.
What’s the ratio?
I dont know. Im up money monthly and my realtor said it adds more than it costs.
I’ve got some bad news for you…
Go on?
Real estate agents are like used car salesmen, they tell you what you want to hear.
Monthly payments are a wool pull, a trick the finance people use to obscure the real numbers.
-3925 + 2722 = 30% loss
If there was a positive return, it’d be cheaper for a buyer to buy without and add it themselves.
Its cheaper for people to build a house themselves but they dont because there is value in the works being completed previously and being in turn key condition.
I didn’t get financing and my numbers showed a 7 year pay back. My capital investment was savings, which immediately reduced my monthly from 250 to zero.
I dont know what a wool pull is but minimising monthly costs has been hugely positive.
The only way solar adds value is one of three ways:
- it’s paid off
- it’s paid off 3 ) if monthly payment is less then electric bill
I’m in a real estate family and I’ve seen solar ruin deals, lose sellers lots of money.
How does solar ruin deals. Buyer can’t afford monthly payment. How does it lose sellers lots of money, they can’t find a buyer so they will be forced to pay it off.
Sounds like a local problem in a developing country.
In Belgium it adds tons of value that people are happy to pay since they will pay less on their electricity bill. And because a lot have EVs, it will lower their driving bill as well.
I am not understanding them at all
This is in the US. So,e solar companies take advantage of people, ruining the benefit. Like I said, if it’s paid off or lowers your bill it’s beneficial. If it’s not then it’s a problem
I dont even understand where you are coming from. My bills are basically gone, my initial cost was low and it is most definitely a selling point.
I cant imagine a deal being broken by solar unless the person buying is an idiot ignorant of science and finance or should otherwise not be buying a house anyway.
Just had one where the solar lease was $350 a month. Much more then your normal electrical bill and increases 3.5% a year. 100k to payoff. This is rough estimate but it was a real issue.
lease
Which is why you don’t lease solar systems. In the USA the solar installation field is filled with predatory businesses that will “lease” you a system you’ll never see a financial benefit from – they’ll make a ton of money though.
Find a company that will sell you a system at a reasonable price or DIY.
I dont understand the structure here, are people leasing the solar equipment? Can I guess where you are from?
Why do you speak of monthly payments?
Our solar was pay upfront
It’s a lease. You lease for a long period of time. Lots of people in the states can’t afford the up front cost
Re 1: Doesn’t the solar add value to the home though? That makes it viable even if selling as you can sell for more.
Re 2: The incentive is potentially on the landlord in these cases, to rent out a solar powered home for more. 35% of Australian homes have rooftop solar, many of those are rentals, because people will pay (e.g.) $10 more rent knowing they will save $20 on their bills.
To answer these:
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Increase in house value due to solar system is likely making this moot.
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Small “balcony solar” system work fine for renters.
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See 2. and for larger systems 1.
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Very unlikely to see a major market unheaval in the next 10 years that would make things cheaper. The real price improvement happend in the last 10 years, and the price difference between LiFePO4 batteries and Sodium-Ion ones will not be large enough for it to matter in anything but grid scale systems.
#1 absolutely is not accurate. My last house had a $40k solar system installed and it maybe raised my home value by $10k per my appraiser. I still thought it was fine because I had intended to live there forever. I ended up moving four years later :(
Sounds like you paid 40k for a system that’s worth around 10k. That absolutely happens with some companies that do the full installation, but it is a total rip off.
The system was worth more than $10k (it was the largest allowed by law), but a good chunk of the cost was definitely the installation and 20 years full warranty. Luckily I was able to transfer that to the new owner. I have been specifically told that essentially all improvements you can do to a home won’t reflect the their cost in the sell value for the most part. You’re lucky to get 25% in most cases, solar is actually better than most things because it is fairly universally desired. Some things do better than other regionally, e.g. in ground pools can get most of their value in FL apparently as long as you don’t go overboard on costs.
Yeah that warranty…
Anyways, solar is a bit unique in that regard, as it isn’t just an general improvement, but actively pays for itself. Heatpumps also fall in that category. Most people realize that if they get such a system for cheap that is actually a discount on the home price and adjust their expectations accordingly. Of course I agree with you that it likely isn’t going to increase the value beyond what it cost to install.
I don’t think you do agree with me. I was saying it wouldn’t increase the value anywhere near what it cost to install unless you essentially did it yourself to keep the cost ultra-low (which wasn’t legally allowed in my area to begin with). Many of the laws regarding solar in much of the US have been made specifically to make solar less attractive, sometimes these laws were directly by the incumbent power companies (In our case it was Duke Energy).
The warranty was actually fine in my case, they came out and replaced/installed a bad panel and they had to replace the inverter when it died at no cost. The warranty was for 20 years when the panels should continue functioning longer, but that’s no longer my benefit. My power usage was really high, even at what I paid, after the rebate it was going to pay for itself in 8 years.
Respectfully, you are trying to generalize real estate based on your local market. That simply doesn’t work. See my other comment on balcony solar for a clear example. Your 4th point is pure speculation with no argument backing it.
I’m not saying solar isn’t viable. Just using my experience in mortgage financing to add more context to the conversation.
edit: Balcony strata isn’t legal in many places. In Canada our electric code requires everything be connected to the breaker box so that electricians can work safely knowing there is no current in the building.
Strata’s also often require panels on railings be mounted flush, facing sideways instead of angled upwards.
Sure, if balcony solar isn’t legal in your place, that is an issue, but more and more places make it legal recently.
As for the realestate market, sure there are conservative realtors that currently undervalue solar systems, but people aren’t stupid. If it makes economic sense to have them in the first place, then most buyers will also make the same calculation and be willing to pay extra, because in the end they will save money compared to a house without solar.
Legalizing it would mean aligning it with the electrical code and running it through the breaker box which introduces prohibitive installation costs. It’s a safety issue, not just politics.
conservative realtors
Again respectfully, you are applying reasoning to real estate that simply does play out that way. Look up the first 3 rules of real estate. There is no substance for me to refute what you are saying because it is fundamentally anecdotal conjecture.
people aren’t stupid. If it makes economic sense
I gotta walk away from this convo bro. The biggest flaw with economic theory in general is that it assumes people make rational decisions. Like its a widely acknowledged flaw.
in the end they will save money compared to a house without solar.
I’m not saying they won’t. I’m saying that the context where that happens doesn’t align with many peoples financial situation and local real estate markets.
again, I’m pro solar. I am just using my experience in mortgage finance to provide some context to this converstaion.
Seemingly, the more rational voice in this subthread/convo, could you lend some insight on “balcony” solar solutions that don’t require a balcony? 😅
FWIW, I have a couple S-facing windows (PacNW) that are curtained 99% of the time, so I’m fine with panels blocking them. No idea yet of that’s when helpful here, though.
It is possible to install the panels flat onto a wall, but then east or west facing is slightly better as the angle of the sun is lower (same for solar fencing).
The problem with such a setup is mainly that if you are not at the ground floor attaching a panel to the wall higher up is not easy, and drilling the necessary anchors into the wall is likely prohibited if you are only renting.
That said, some balcon less buildings still have a kind of metal fencing in front of full height windows, and you can attach smaller panels to those relatively easily.
There are also super thin panels (meant to install on camping vans etc.) you could in theory glue to your windows, but that would be rather permanent and maybe not such a good idea.
Yeah, ground floor and no windows (or access) to E/W sun. 🥲 Ah, well, maybe the next place I can barely afford. Who knows? 🙃
I’ve seen some saddle mounts for solar panels that don’t require any destructive anchoring, so you could just throw it on the windowsill and let it go. You can always plug the gaps on the window if needed
Regarding 1, perhaps you are the one trying to generalize your local market to everywhere else?
See:
Arizona, USA:
Soak up the sun: Impact of solar energy systems on residential home values in ArizonaIn particular, properties with electricity-generating solar panels enjoy an average premium of approximately $45,000 (15% of medium home value) and transaction price premium of $28,000 (17% of medium home sales price).
California, Connecticut, Massachusetts, and Oregon - USA:
Solar at High Noon: Solar Home Premiums in a Rapidly Maturing Market:We find clear evidence that solar systems are correlated with higher selling prices if those systems are owned by the homeowner (HO). Alternatively, we find no value or slightly lower values associated with non-owned panels
Southport, Australia:
House price premium associated with residential solar photovoltaics and the effect from feed-in tariffs: A case study of Southport in Queensland, AustraliaUsing the hedonic approach, the study found that the gross premium was 4.3% of the average house price; the average net premium (exclusive of the PV installation cost) was 21,403 AUD when the FiT was at 44 cents/kWh; when the FiT dropped to 8 cents/kWh, the gross premium fell to 2.4%, and the average net premium dropped to 5600 AUD. The study shows that a solar PV house does enjoy a premium in terms of property value and indicates that a higher solar rebate and subsidy leads to a higher premium
If energy efficiency increases by 100 kWh/m2a, prices increase by 6.9% on average […] there is evidence that about 98% of future energy cost savings are already reflected in a higher housing value under myopic expectations regarding future energy prices.
Italy:
The Market Price Premium for Residential PV PlantsOur results show that individuals are willing to pay an additional price for a solar home, and the average market price premium is equal to 2.69% for monocrystalline PV plants and equal to 3.08% for polycrystalline PV plants respectively.
UK:
Returns to solar panels in the housing market: A meta learner approachOur results point to a selling price premium above 6% (range between 6.1% to 7.1% depending on the meta-learner) associated with solar panels. Considering that the average selling price is £230,536 in our sample, this corresponds to an additional £14,062 to £16,368 selling price premium for houses with solar panels.
So to do an accurate property value assesment (what you’re doing) you’d need to provide at least 5 examples from each of those regions, only including comparable properties. In other words you need to isolate that it was the solar panels and not a litany of other potential factors.
I’m not saying solar doesn’t improve property value.
I’m saying you cannot take one example and apply it to an entire market. Which you just did x6.
So to do an accurate property value assesment (what you’re doing) you’d need to provide at least 5 examples from each of those regions, only including comparable properties. In other words you need to isolate that it was the solar panels and not a litany of other potential factors.
Exactly, and all studies take that into account and use the same hedonic price models which most appraisals rely on.
Apologies for not providing links to some of those locked papers, as Anna’s Archive is down right now, otherwise you could also dive further into their methodologies
I’m saying you cannot take one example and apply it to an entire market. Which you just did x6.
Which is not the case with these studies, as explained above, so once again, perhaps you are the one trying to generalize your local market to everywhere else?
In Canada our electric code requires everything be connected to the breaker box so that electricians can work safely knowing there is no current in the building.
if a panel is plugged into the existing house circuits, shutting off the main breaker will shut off the current.
Any electrician carries a current tester at all times.
Increase in house value due to solar system is likely making this moot.
don’t buy this bullshit. has no effect on value, and likely has a negative impact as many DIY systems are hacks.
Appreciate your passion and input but try to remain as constructive and kind as possible as calling another person’s informed opinions “bullshit” may not be appreciated. Thanks.
Today a DIY system usually means a fully integrated system from a single Chinese supplier: hybrid inverter, BMS and batteries together. That is no hack, and no major difference (other than price) from what a professional company installs.
Having such a system absolutely raises the price of the house sold. Maybe not a full cost recovery, but enough to not make it a total loss if you end up selling before the usual return of investment period.
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I know more about electronics than finance.
What I would do is take a more holistic approach to your home’s power system, with solar panels as one very useful tool in a well-stocked tool belt, that also includes:
- A time-of-use power plan from your energy company.
- A whole house battery
- A smart or programmable thermostat
- A few outlet timers
- An electric car charger with timer or some similar solution
I am currently on a standard rate power plan, I pay 14 cents a kilowatt-hour no matter the time of day. My power company offers a time-of-use plan that varies between 29 , 11 and 7 cents per kilowatt hour depending on the time of day. The game becomes, buy as little power as possible during the 3 hours it’s 29 cents, and as much as possible during the 5 hours while it’s 7 cents.
This might mean doing laundry and dishes at 1 in the morning, setting a timer to charge your EV at 1 in the morning, setting a thermostat to turn air conditioning off between the hours of 6 and 9, that sort of stuff. A battery system can store energy when it’s cheap for later use when it’s expensive. Solar power is then a further reduction in the amount of power you buy; in my area depending on time of year the solar producing parts of the day are either in mid- or discount-price times, so the bulk of your savings are coming from discounts and time shifting. They’d likely be more valuable during extended power failures than day to day power savings, as you’re unlikely to generate a dollar per day.
I know a decent amount about electronics, finance, and home solar.
Regional differences change the “best case” behavior drastically. For example, in my Midwestern state (with a still pitiful solar install base statewide), your list would be nearly the exact wrong ideal behavior. My state is about 10 years behind the leading states as far as solar installs and policy. So think back to California rules 10-15 years ago and that’s a pretty good idea what rules apply in my state which is quite an upside for solar home owners.
A time-of-use power plan from your energy company.
This would be a bad thing in my state. This would mean you would get paid the lowest amount of per KWh at the best time of production.
A whole house battery
Bad choice financially in my state. We have 1:1 net metering so the grid is the most cost efficient battery. I do have 10KWh of solar battery storage, but I don’t charge/discharge it daily and really have it for backup needs in case of a grid outage. Nothing about buying the battery is a good idea financially though in my state.
A smart or programmable thermostat
Not as useful on a heat pump where you want to generally run the same temp 24/7/365 to give the heat pump the most time to extra energy from the outside air and avoid large temperature swings triggering power hungry electric strip backup heating. A programmable thermostat is still useful for the occasional vacation hold though.
A few outlet timers
Not needed if not using TOU.
An electric car charger with timer or some similar solution
Generally not needed when not using TOU. Additionally, many EVs themselves have the timer built in so no need to have a timer on the EVSE. Full disclosure, I do charge EVs from midnight to 4AM because I have a separate meter from my electric company with a tariff that is “distribution fee”-free for every KWh for EV charging. This stacks with my 1:1 net metering, so I essentially get paid to charge EVs at night.
I am currently on a standard rate power plan, I pay 14 cents a kilowatt-hour no matter the time of day. My power company offers a time-of-use plan that varies between 29 , 11 and 7 cents per kilowatt hour depending on the time of day. The game becomes, buy as little power as possible during the 3 hours it’s 29 cents, and as much as possible during the 5 hours while it’s 7 cents.
I have no doubt you’ve chosen a good path for your state and electric company. You’ve put a lot of thought into optimizing it. My post is just highlighting that the rule to optimize against vary widely by region even in the same national borders.
Do you have a non-exporting solar system? If not what price to get per KWh during the various times of the day with your TOU power plan?
I don’t currently have a large scale system; I’m currently running my fridge and a few other things off of a portable solar/battery setup, as part of researching a whole home system. I’m on a standard rate plan, I pay 14c/kWh round the clock.
The ToU price and schedule for my region looks like this:
Peak is ~29c/kWh, Off-Peak is ~11c/kWh, Discount is ~7c/kWh. So I could save money if I just switched to the ToU plan and threw my main breaker 3 hours a day.
My local energy company’s exporting solar program is bad and about to get worse, to the point it’s out of the question. I’m not going to sell them power at mid-day for 3c/kWh and buy it back at damn near 30 at night. So the only real winning strategy here is the “ToU + battery time shift” and since the equipment needed to do that almost certainly has plugs for solar power, might as well put up some panels. Buying power at 7c/kWh in the early morning, generating your own power and not buying anything during the day while power is 11c/kWh, and then using the power you bought earlier when it costs 29c/kWh is the move.
Not as useful on a heat pump where you want to generally run the same temp 24/7/365 to give the heat pump the most time to extra energy from the outside air and avoid large temperature swings triggering power hungry electric strip backup heating. A programmable thermostat is still useful for the occasional vacation hold though.
This isn’t congruent with my understanding of how heat pumps work. Electric strips are going to kick on in extreme cold if/when the heat pump can’t keep up, or for defrosting the outdoor unit. Every heat pump I’ve used, unless they frost up, will happily heat a house to 80 degrees from 32 without kicking on the emergency heat until and unless it needs to defrost. I’ve never personally seen one kick on heat strips simply for increased Delta-T, not without manually putting it in EM-HEAT mode.
I don’t currently own a heat pump, I have an air conditioner and a condensing furnace. My long term plan is to have the air conditioner replaced with a heat pump, and keep the furnace for emergency heat instead of strips. I recently learned that in North Carolina, if a given heat pump system is calculated to keep the home up to a certain temperature on the typical coldest night in the county, backup heat is not legally required. Defrost will be achieved by running the unit in AC mode, so you’ll occasionally get a blast of cold air from the vents.
Neither my air conditioner nor my furnace run 24/7/365, both are duty cycle modulated, they turn on and off throughout the day and night to maintain temperature. Here in late September I actually have the system switched entirely off and my windows are open, because it’s a comfy 65F outside tonight. Spring and fall are comfortable enough that I just don’t run HVAC for 4 months a year.
I don’t currently have a large scale system; I’m currently running my fridge and a few other things off of a portable solar/battery setup, as part of researching a whole home system.
I had already done the research I needed and was ready to put in a larger house-attached grid-tied system slightly before the current generation of portable battery/panel setup came out. For your situation, I agree you are taking the right approach.
I’m on a standard rate plan, I pay 14c/kWh round the clock.
Can I ask if the 14c/KWh is the rate you pay for generation only or the whole cost to deliver 1 KWh to your house (transmission,distriubtion,generation,customer connection plus fees). Put another way, if you consumed 1000KWh in a month would you have exactly a $140 electric bill?
The ToU price and schedule for my region looks like this:
Peak is ~29c/kWh, Off-Peak is ~11c/kWh, Discount is ~7c/kWh. So I could save money if I just switched to the ToU plan and threw my main breaker 3 hours a day.
My local energy company’s exporting solar program is bad and about to get worse, to the point it’s out of the question. I’m not going to sell them power at mid-day for 3c/kWh and buy it back at damn near 30 at night.
Ouch, so even on the fixed rate power plan you essentially 4.67:1 net export (as in you have to export 4 KWh at midday to import 1 KWh any other time of day)?
So the only real winning strategy here is the “ToU + battery time shift” and since the equipment needed to do that almost certainly has plugs for solar power, might as well put up some panels. Buying power at 7c/kWh in the early morning, generating your own power and not buying anything during the day while power is 11c/kWh, and then using the power you bought earlier when it costs 29c/kWh is the move.
Yep, in your state, I agree TOU+battery is likely the best way to go limiting import as much as possible.
Not as useful on a heat pump where you want to generally run the same temp 24/7/365 to give the heat pump the most time to extra energy from the outside air and avoid large temperature swings triggering power hungry electric strip backup heating. A programmable thermostat is still useful for the occasional vacation hold though.
This isn’t congruent with my understanding of how heat pumps work. Electric strips are going to kick on in extreme cold if/when the heat pump can’t keep up, or for defrosting the outdoor unit. Every heat pump I’ve used, unless they frost up, will happily heat a house to 80 degrees from 32 without kicking on the emergency heat until and unless it needs to defrost.
For modern heat pumps your experience is mostly still applicable. The exception is the “comfort” settings most vendor thermostats incorporate. If a temperature increase is indicated by the operator above a certain set point, the system interprets this as a call for rapid heating and will run the condenser at 100% but also kick on electric strips to reach the called for temperature much sooner.
I’ve never personally seen one kick on heat strips simply for increased Delta-T, not without manually putting it in EM-HEAT mode.
I don’t currently own a heat pump, I have an air conditioner and a condensing furnace.
When we bought this house it had natural gas furnace too. Not only was the gas expensive, but during the warmer months the minimum require “connection fee” continued to get hit with price increases even when zero gas was consumed. When we finally replace the heat pump the connection fee was $40/month. My neighbors tell me its risen to $70/month now and none of that money goes toward consumed gas.
My long term plan is to have the air conditioner replaced with a heat pump, and keep the furnace for emergency heat instead of strips.
I considered a dual fuel setup like that, but the economics of the connection fee negated any value. I’ll be the first to say that my January and February electricity bills are very high, but all of the saving from not having natural gas, and being able to heat with solar generated heat pump in the spring and fall very much still make it financially worth it for this setup.
I recently learned that in North Carolina, if a given heat pump system is calculated to keep the home up to a certain temperature on the typical coldest night in the county, backup heat is not legally required. Defrost will be achieved by running the unit in AC mode, so you’ll occasionally get a blast of cold air from the vents.
I can run my heat pump in AC Defrost mode too, but the **Wife Acceptance Factor ** goes way down doing that so we run electric strips for the defrost cycle.
Neither my air conditioner nor my furnace run 24/7/365, both are duty cycle modulated, they turn on and off throughout the day and night to maintain temperature.
Perhaps I wasn’t clear. I wasn’t suggesting my heat pump is running 24/7/365, quite the opposite. Rather, the thermostat is set to a single temperature and, unlike gas heating, there is no value in lowering the thermostat temperature at night or when the house is unoccupied. The opposite exists, when running a heat pump reducing the thermostat temp at night means the heat pump has to run harder and longer in the morning when you want the house back up to temperature. Its less efficient because the limiting factor is the volume of air that can be moved through the outdoor condenser to extract heat from. If the option to save energy is having the house uncomfortably cold for hours everyday, I consider that a failure of an HVAC design. This is, of course, just my opinion though.
I’m three states north of you and we’ve been running on our Cold Climate Heat pump for two winters now without any gas heating. This unit can still extract heat for the house when the outside temperature is -15°F, but its running pretty inefficiently.
Can I ask if the 14c/KWh is the rate you pay for generation only or the whole cost to deliver 1 KWh to your house (transmission,distriubtion,generation,customer connection plus fees). Put another way, if you consumed 1000KWh in a month would you have exactly a $140 electric bill?
The price per kWh is set at 12.623c/kWh, which they then adjust up and down a few hundredths of a cent via “rider” for fuel costs, it tends to hover around 14c/kWh in my experience. To this is added a $14 monthly Basic Customer Charge, and then state sales tax.
So in a month where I consume exactly 1000kWh, the bill would be ($0.14c/kWh*1000kWh + $14)*1.07 = 164.78.
Something I just now learned reading documentation kinda buried on the website, during the winter months, even on a standard rate plan, it’s 12.623c for the first 800 kWh, and then 11.623c for each additional kWh. I’m guessing to go easier on folks with electric heat? I’ve never come close to 800kWh…I may have to look back.
Ouch, so even on the fixed rate power plan you essentially 4.67:1 net export (as in you have to export 4 KWh at midday to import 1 KWh any other time of day)?
They don’t allow you to grid tie solar panels on a fixed rate power plan. If you attach solar panels to the grid you HAVE to be on a ToU plan, and that deal is actually getting worse on New Year’s Day for those who plan to export power. I’m honestly struggling to understand some details about that, most literature about it starts saying “The bridge rate is being grandfathered out” and stuff like that without explaining what it’s talking about, so if you’re a newcomer to the discussion, fuck off back to kindergarten, child.
I’m three states north of you and we’ve been running on our Cold Climate Heat pump for two winters now without any gas heating. This unit can still extract heat for the house when the outside temperature is -15°F, but its running pretty inefficiently.
Yeah we’re definitely designing HVAC against different climates. Down here, we never see temps as low as -15F. I don’t think I’ve ever seen 0F. Heat pumps struggle more to keep up in the summer here, mine has failed to keep the house at 75 a few times every year I’ve lived here, and there’s no such thing as strips to help out.
I’m not getting rid of gas without a whole house system capable of running a heat pump for at least a day, for power outage reasons. We’ll have winter storms that’ll take down the lines, and then I’m heating my house with a Glo-Warm, since it requires no power, and the gas system around here…I’ve seen it fail once, because someone didn’t call 811 before renting a backhoe.
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Some people would pay slightly more for a house that already has solar installed, even if it’s a 5-7 year old system. So install it, then use it as a selling point down the track.
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Anecdotally, I’ve rented a house before that had solar installed. It was a factor in my choosing to rent that place. I don’t know how it is elsewhere in the world, but it’s pretty common in Australia to have to pay for your own electricity usage when renting a place. The solar panels lowered my bills considerably.
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Pad mount / ground mount systems are a thing, if you have enough space. That said, anything that can be installed, can be removed. Cost is a factor, though.
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I don’t see any breakthroughs coming any time soon. Gradual improvements through economies of scale will likely be it, along with any government incentives.
Certainly. I’m one of them.
I’m not saying solar isn’t viable. Just using my experience in mortgage financing to add more context to the conversation.
Personally I don’t understand the “no breakthroughs coming” even though solar has been steadily improving for decades. Seems to me the use of the term “breakthrough” might be a bit of a strawman.
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I am looking into this myself. Based on the article, I would reiterate the importance of knowing your local laws and ordinances and even your HOA policy (if any) on batteries and solar.
My general stance is you should have a wide degree of freedom with what you build and do on your own property.
However I’d say any significant electrical work you do, you should pull a permit. This gets a extra set of eyes on the work (when it is inspected). It also gives you protection for insurance purposes. If your house burns down at some point, you don’t want to be in a position where you are telling the insurance company that you did a bunch of unlicensed and unpermitted electrical work.
Outdoor electrical work is also very visible. Doing work inside is one thing, but installing a large array of panels and running conduit isn’t gonna slide.
