Can someone explain to me how my state got everything else right for the most part but went stupid for this one?
Literally, let’s inspect little girls privates, but not boys, because 10 trans students exist and MIGHT want to play sports with their friends? Jesus.
It was also kind of disgusting that literally all our state initiatives were funded by a 1%-er, Brian Heywood and his Let’s Go Washingtion PAC.
All male sports athletes should just play with their dicks out. Only way to be sure.
Pass legislation and call it the Humans Actually Requiring Athletic Male Body Exhibition law.
That’s how swimming used to be back in the 50s. Kinda fucked up how adamant parents were to keep it that way at the time.
Fix the timeline…
Just like in Ancient Greece, who were famously vehement anti-pedophiles.
Pretty sure a lot of republicans would vote for that…
That is very disappointing like when CA passed Prop 8, and it went down in flames later because these things are wrong, and target people. That’s not liberty and justice for all and will fall eventually too.
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To any future reader: this person is a bot farming rage. They are a new account and, according to their comment history, they believe non-white people are genetically predisposed to steal, and poor people are predisposed to rape.
Thanks. I will harvest this rage. 😂
Edit: Aww, account age 20h, and their dozens of posts/comments are all deleted. 🤣
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i want to watch the life drain from your eyes
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i wasn’t talking about sexuality or gender, i was talking about killing you
Your instance name fucking rules! I love it
Chromosomes, not wigs or gait, determine sexual characteristics. Chromosomes are not binary, and presumably you are not that user’s doctor or specialist.
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Vast majority of “trans” are just homosexual men with XY chromosomes.
Source?
your overall “for any and no reason at all” abortions
you obviously believe that a man that puts on a wig and says “I am now a real woman” is legit.
Don’t try to put words in my mouth, and I already rebutted the second point.
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If you could understand the images I sent in the other comments, you would see that it is entirely possible for someone with XY chromosomes to appear to be a woman, present themselves as a woman, and believe they are a woman.
By the way, I’m still waiting on a source for this claim you made:
Vast majority of “trans” are just homosexual men with XY chromosomes.
Where did you get this information? I would like to learn more.
Kys
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They were almost as insensitive as demanding children get genital examinations in order to participate in school sports.
Nobody wants you here
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You identify as someone or something that cannot comprehend a reality of which many aspects are analog.
I did enjoy having you here for a short time, but I feel I speak for this thread’s majority when I say that your ad hominem attacks and refusal to create any meaningful argument are becoming tiresome.
Because our hate crime laws are insufficient.
This is the absolute dumbest bait thing to get mad about. This entire issue is more or less a straw man created by the right to get people to vote for them. It impacts a completely miniscule portion of the population, and very clearly, trans women have a biological advantage over people who were born women. More muscle, faster reaction time, etc. It’s known and scientifically proven. Clearly, the populace agrees with this as evidenced by this passing. You could make a trans specific league, but there are so few trans athletes that you would likely be unable to field a team. The left needs to just drop this issue. It plays right into where the Republicans want.
https://www.advocate.com/politics/national/trump-dallas-transgender-empty-arena
very clearly, trans women have a biological advantage over people who were born women
I’m gonna be honest, as someone who doesn’t really give a shit about sports, I just don’t care. Let whoever wants to play play on whichever team or league they prefer. I don’t care who plays, wins, or loses, and the whole thing just doesn’t matter very much. These are GAMES. Diversions. We are talking about children playing games. This shit just doesn’t matter very much.
I think we should drop issues that impact you instead, since there’s more trans people than there are you.
It would only impact a completely minuscule portion of the population.
trans women have a biological advantage over people who were born women. More muscle, faster reaction time, etc.
Do you believe that an AFAB girl/woman who is able to easily defeat male opponents should be banned from participating in women’s sports?
If you are going to argue in favor of banning trans women from participating in women’s sports, you might take that argument to it’s logical conclusion and filter out for all biological inequities. Born too tall? Banned from basketball, because the average person is not as tall as you and it wouldn’t be fair to the majority of average height players. Born with webbed fingers and toes? Banned from swimming, because other people don’t have that biological advantage and it wouldn’t be fair.
You see how drawing the line arbitrarily at gender identity/biological sex is absurd?
You see how drawing the line arbitrarily at gender identity/biological sex is absurd?
I hope I do but too many that are happy transphobes when it comes only to women’s sports don’t every acknowledge it. Hell even in this thread there’s someone happy to say it’s only a factor in women’s sports. Others say it’s fine because they hadn’t seen men complaining like the women…
Nobody actually cares about trans women in sports. Its a proxy for the real argument, which is usually ‘I find it icky’. The left doesnt need to drop it. They need to ignore the stupid sports argument and call it out for what it is. Bigotry.
Trans people have rights and the right wants to strip them of them. It has nothing to do with sports.
we need to hold their feet to the fucking fire because this isn’t just an attack on Trans people. It’s a gateway to attack the entire Queer community.
They come for one of us, they come for all of us.
Nobody actually cares about trans women in sports.
what exactly gives you that idea? I literally just had a conversation with a very left leaning friend yesterday and she made it pretty clear she thought it was ridiculous for trans women to be competing again biological women because she said they clearly had an unfair advantage.
Either your friend is a TERF or it was what we Germans call “Geschichten vom Paulanergarten” which means it never happened.
People who claim trans women have an unfair advantage don’t know what HRT does to a body and muscle retention.
So stfu about shit you have no idea about.
You should take your own advice.
That’s a review and not a study. And a lot of the content is pretty cherrypicked.
Bad try.
This is an actual study that shows that transwomen have comparable fitness to ciswomen.
That is also a review, my friend.
It’s also just an abstract. Do you have the full paper?
I will acknowledge that transgender women after 3 years or so may have similar physical fitness to cisgender women. That 3 years is important though. I think if transgender women were to be allowed to compete in female leagues, there would need to be verification of HRT timelines. In a high school environment I could see this being difficult for a number of reasons. That’s not to say I’m against it, but I think further regulations would need to be put in place in order to guarantee fairness.
Edit:
Reviewing it further…
“The authors have been thorough in gathering relevant literature, but the paper suffers from several problems.
“Only longitudinal studies are truly informative, because otherwise we can’t know the contribution of hormonal treatment to fitness nor how much difference in fitness between transgender women and cisgender women existed before treatment began – it might be that transgender women in research studies have self-selected as a group who were not as strong or as aerobically fit as cisgender men before they began treatment. The longitudinal data (pages 8-9 in the paper) don’t show convincing evidence of changes in physical fitness that remove the advantage known to exist between men and women in the absence of hormonal treatment. Indeed, other authors (including me) reviewed essentially the same literature and concluded that performance decreases due to hormonal treatment in transgender women were notably smaller than typical differences between men and women, meaning retention of performance advantage
In short, if the review I sent you seems flawed, this review seems probably just as flawed.
I think the biggest problem with all of this right now is that, honestly, we really do not know the answer to this question. And i think if you claim to know right now, then you probably aren’t very credible. Without knowing fully, allowing trans and cis athletes to compete against each other, really just does not seem fair. People in this thread seem to believe that voters were wrong to vote as they did in Washington, however going off what we have said so far, I believe they probably got it right. For now.
This could change, and as therapies evolve it probably will change, but right now there seem to be too many unknowns and regulatory issues to ensure a fair athletic environment for female middle and high school athletes.
Also here is something a lot more comprehensive then https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC7988249/ if you have a free account, you can see the full text
And sports have standards. In most cases, transwomen have to have hormone levels similar to ciswomen. I agree with having standards to ensure that transwomen have to have been on HRT long enough to achieve similar levels as ciswomen. But banning transwomen from women’s sports is wrong.
very left leaning friend
She thinks that Kamala was only slightly too far left when she said that ICE would deport more people under her administration than Trump’s.
thanks for your helpful addition to this conversation.
Ask your idiot friend how long she’s been thinking women are inferior to men.
'Cos that biological essentialism is the bastard child of misogyny
a very left leaning friend yesterday
Well, even leftists can be absolutely brain dead fucking stupid. So jot that down.
both parties have their very brain dead portions, one party just has more of them.
I would say anyone that can’t think for themself, fact check, or vet sources is probably pretty fucking braindead. Unfortunately there are almost just as many of those people on the left as there are on the right. I mean theres a reason why the frickin middle class voted against a literal billionaire tax in california.
My point is that your “very left leaning” friend is a fucking dipshit for believing that, and is probably not especially left wing, if they’re willing to throw trans people under the bus based on pseudo-scientific nonsense
Is it pseudo nonsense that men have a physoligical advantage compared to women, or what are you arguing?
Trans women aren’t men and taking HRT impacts your muscle mass, etc.
There is a wealth of scientific literature about the effects of HRT. This isn’t new or unexplored. But apeals to fairness in sports, based on a poor understanding of the science, is being used as cudgel against trans folks. As a wedge issue to bar us from being about to exist freely in public life.
The fact that the sports ban policies that come out of this, also impact cis women and girls, be exposing them to genital checks and the like, are a bonus for the kinds of backward reactionaries who push this shit
pseudo scientific how? this isn’t bigotry, this is a real question.
Every trans woman i know is basically patched together with duct tape and caffeine.
If the numbers are so fucking low then it’s a non-issue. We’re talking a miniscule part of the population. You’d have to have a trans student. Then that student needs to be out. Then that student needs to want to be into sports. A tiny number sliced down and down and down. You’re talking about five fucking people. You’re getting hysterical over five fucking people . That is absolutely nothing worth talking about, let alone legislating. Absolute horseshit
its strange. I know a very large portion of the left feel its wrong for trans women to be competing against biological women, but this portion is so afraid of getting vilified by the other portion for what they secretly consider to just be common sense, that they just stay silent. And, honestly, its probably the smart move. We live in a world where if you’re the nail that sticks out you get hammered down.
Good. That position deserves to be vilified. I hope you get hammered down off this fucking platform you worthless piece of shit
I guess… thank you for proving my point?
Relax everyone. Conservatives only want to inspect the athletic girls’ genitals. It’s not like they are trying to look at non-athletic girls or even naked boys. That would be gross and immoral.
Each young, athletic girl who has genitals that are capable of passing a detailed inspection with a rating of 7 out of 10 or higher will be permitted to play girl-sports in public for everyone to look at, record and enjoy. And to prevent any criticism from the libs, all genital inspections will need to be video recorded. For safety of course. And then reviewed by men who are officially qualified as authentic conservatives. For safety. THANK YOU FOR YOUR ATTENTION TO THIS MATTER.
Why are genital exams required? Don’t they already already have a copy of everones birth certificate?
Genital exams are required because conservatives are pedophiles. It really is that simple.
FUN FACT: Conservatives are biologically unable to experience empathy. This is why they are unable to view women or children as humans. Humanizing others requires empathy.
A statement from your doctor does not mean a genital exam. I have to get a statement from my doctor for my son to go to summer camp that says he has no physical limitations. That part of the new rules is no big deal. The discussion should be about rights, not this hyperbolic calling everyone a pedo.
Hey now, that’s not fair. It’s not hyperbolic to call conservatives pedophiles. It is a fact that they chose a proud and well known child predator as their best representative out of everyone else in the nation.
They chose him as their most accurate representation three times over a decade, knowing full well that he “likes 'em young”, likes to go into teen dressing rooms uninvited so he can see them nude, and grabs women by their genitals without consent. According to conservatives themselves, no one more accurately represents them than Trump. No one.
It’s not just Trump. Conservatives consistently choose child predators as their most accurate representatives. I think its disrespectful to conservatives to ignore their chosen avatars. They insist on aligning with pedophiles and we should respect that choice and refer to them as such.
The measure says students in elementary, middle and high school who want to join girls’ athletics must first submit statements from their healthcare providers verifying their “biological sex”. Opponents have raised alarms the measure may force girls to endure “invasive and extreme” genital exams to participate in school sports.
Epstein is getting hard in is grave
That is just humiliating. These aren’t professional sports leagues for god’s sake.
What the fuck.
And specifically targeting girls. How the fuck does something like this even get on the ballot?
Brian Heywood, a republican millionaire who moved to WA from California to “escape liberals”, has been abusing the ballot initiative system here using his wealth for years. He (and his PAC “Let’s Go Washington”) purposefully makes them misleading or otherwise confusing to understand in order to get them passed.
A silver lining is that most of his initiatives haven’t passed (such as the initiative to repeal the millionaire tax), and those few that have over the years have been gutted, heavily modified, or found to be unconstitutional in the state supreme court. The supreme court here just became even more left leaning, and since the way he wrote the initiative makes it only apply to girls, it’s likely to be thrown out.
Thankfully it’s got a good shot at being ruled unconstitutional, assuming the supreme court doesn’t fuck that up too.
The measure “may” force girls to endure invasive and extreme genital exams? I’m pretty sure having one’s genitals examined, especially when a minor, is invasive and extreme.
Can the state supreme court block it?
I wonder if they’re required to satisfy the federal standard for sex identification. That would require more than a genital exam. It would require capturing a zygote.
Pretty invasive.
It would require capturing a zygote.
Did you mean capturing a gamete? As in, a viable sperm cell or egg? Which proves that the individual is biologically capable of producing those gametes, which means they are capable of producing viable offspring?
Because capturing a zygote (a viable egg that has been successfully fertilized by a viable sperm cell, but hasn’t yet implanted itself on the uterine wall to become an embryo) would require a woman to have a fertilized egg. And I feel like requiring impregnation just to confirm sex is a little… Impractical?
It would mean positively identifying males would be impossible, because they’re not capable of carrying a zygote at all. That that’s before we even get into the whole “in order to confirm an elementary school girl is biologically female so she can compete, the doctor would first need to impregnate her to create a zygote” thing.
I did indeed mean gamete, and thank you for the correction.
Will I don’t support the ban. This seems a little over the top. Invasive and extreme? Any kid getiing regual exams yearly by their doctor get a genital check. That is enough I am sure. Where it gets complicated is with the poor, who can’t afford to have a regular pediatrician. But sadly they usually can’t afford to play school sports often. So there are a ton of problems with all this, like a ton. But I don’t think there are going to be any invasive and extreme exams as a result. With all the real problems this creates, can’t we just stick to those?
I don’t remember getting my genitals looked at in regular exams when I was young. Regardless of that, these are NOT health exams–they are to inspect the genitals of the child. That is extreme as fuck. These genital inspections are discriminatory, as boys do not have to submit to them. How anyone could accept this, let alone vote for it, is absolutely insane.
They aren’t requiring a specific exam. They are just requiring a doctor to sign off that they are biologically a boy or girl. This basically come down to lifting the underwear and looking down, which is what is normally done at an early are to check for abnormalities that may need to be addressed. No touching even need to take place. At a very young age, like pre 1 or so, they do a bit more detailed checking for issues. So if you have the same doc, they could sign off based on that alone.
My kid didn’t, I was told vaginal exams only start when they become sexually active.
Vaginal exam is more than is needed to confirm boy vs girl. The docs always just lifted the underwear and looked for any sign of abnormalities that might need treatment. No poking or touching even needed.
I think a lot of the left is being willfully ignorant of other people’s viewpoints and I find it frustrating.
- The vast majority of people voting for this did not know all the content of the bill, “keep boys out of girls sports” is probably the most they heard about it, not the genital checking.
- Plenty of centrists and even right-leaning people are OK with adults doing what they want, but are still very protective of children. Limiting children from hormones is not considered a violation of trans rights for most people; rights have always been segmented by adulthood, the same way a child does not have the right to vote or join the military or get a tattoo. I think a large part of the issue is that the left (or any political ideology) is not really cohesive and is several ontologies in a trench coat; the popular rhetoric (woke version 1 as AOC calls it) from the left has been that gender is a social construct and is divorced from biological sex, if that’s the case then why do trans children need hormones to be their preferred gender? As a fellow leftist I understand everyone experiences gender and it’s relationship to society differently (euphoria vs dysphoria, etc.), but there has been a major nuance gap in public discourse which leaves many Americans feel like the left has pulled a bait and switch on them.
- Society has spent decades promoting girl’s and women’s sports and now feel like that’s being trampled upon by allowing biological males (who have a distinct physical advantage) dominating their space. It’d be like getting rid of weight classifications in power lifting, anyone under 6 feet would never win again and short people would be ousted out of another sport.
A ‘fellow leftist’ biological males-ing? You’re a hoot
Do you deny sexual dimorphic trends within our species? Are there populations of humans where females have more bone density, skeletal structural differences muscle mass, and height than males I haven’t heard about? Would you want all sports desegregated? If males aren’t distinctly different from females why even bother taking hormones to change body morphology at all?
The voter guide was pretty specific about the invasive checks. Everyone gets the guide.
I live in Seattle I’m well aware of the voter guide, however that does not mean the average voter reads it.
I think it’s worth noting that a human’s genetics chnage based on their environment.
Saying that males have a distinct advantage is entirely too reductive for such a complex topic as human genetics and growth.
Do you have any epigenetic phenomena that specifically applies to sports abilities in the average human? I agree individual cases may vary but it’s hard to deny the vast majority of men out perform the vast majority of women in almost every aspect.
https://runninglevel.com/running-times/5k-times https://strengthorigins.com/strength-standards/powerlifting/ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UcprxDdAdeE
Dominating girls sports? Of course that is nonsense. Meh.
Unfortunately I can’t disagree. I do wish people would look something up rather than assume as the initiative did at least say that “it would require verification of a student’s biological sex.” I guess people didn’t ask the obvious next question of “how?”
Proper education and understanding is one of the biggest issues in society. We’re always moving too fast as society intends, so that we’re too tired to think about things, we’ve got bills to pay, and social media primes us to make and stand behind snap judgements.
We really didn’t circulate this ad enough.
Thankfully it should get immediately challenged at the state level based on discrimination since it only applies to girls.
Unfortunately I can’t disagree. I do wish people would look something up rather than assume
You can’t say that, in agreement with someone who said “by allowing biological males (who have a distinct physical advantage)”. If someone had done the former, they’d understand the latter is not a blanket statement you can throw around
We won the war but lost the battle… Also this is sure to get sued and challenged as it’s a direct discrimination based on sex and title IX prohibits that shit
The State Constitution also prohibits this. It will hopefully never take effect because a state court must shut this down.
It wouldn’t be the first right-wing ballot initiative to go directly into the trash in this state.
The war is ongoing make no mistake.
This just adds another barrier and pathway to abuse to women’s sports
Transphobia comes from misogyny, they want to hurt both the cis girls and the trans girls.
That’s the point! Brian Heywood wants girls and women to avoid playing sports.
Congrats you have banned 1% of children from a leisure activity and now require minors to present their genitals to adults of no relation.
1% is a huge overstatement. There’s like 4 in the whole state.
4 trans minors in the entire state? I am doubtful.
if you actually think its a whole 1% then you should probably think about it a bit more.
I love cis people telling me this shit
im not sure what that is supposed to mean, or what relevance that even has to this topic, but you’re welcome i guess.
Can someone explain to me how my state got everything else right for the most part but went stupid for this one?
If that’s an actual question, my guess at an answer is that since this election’s blue wave was more voting against Republicans than for Democrats, it’s not a sign of fundamental change among the electorate. People mostly still believe today what they believed a few years ago (though there’s clear leftward shift), and one of the few genuinely popular things Republicans have is their anti-trans agenda. Therefore when typically Republican-leaning people got to vote on it, they voted against Republicans and simultaneously against trans rights. This is doubly so because trans women in sports is one issue where Republicans can actually make a seemingly rational (but wrong) argument for their case.
Some things lag in politics. Trans kids in sports are the new boogeyman so most people have a hard time accepting the premise. If trans kids are going to be excluded we at least need to focus on education and general acceptance. When I was in high school pretty much nobody was openly gay although I like to think we wouldn’t have treated them like lepers (probably would have). Meeting LGBTQ people in college was common though and a lot of us got over our fears and misconceptions. I’ve met maybe 3-4 trans people in my entire life but in actuality it was probably more because they didn’t feel safe to present as the opposite gender. Unfortunately I think it will take time to get over the initial shock and the best we can do is to try and defend their right to self-determination and encourage them to be who they are so everyone can see this is really no big deal.
Also from a purely propaganda point it’s a great wedge issue, mostly because it’s what I like to call a grey water issue wherein theres a lot of nuance involved so it makes people stupid. Ideally people would stop being stupid and handle this based on an instance by instance basis especially since there are so few trans folks to begin with.
Mind you I know enough about biology to know that it’s a rainbow of fucken grey, because biology abhors easy answers. There’s no such thing as a perfect specimen only a type specimen and even that’s ignoring a lot of variation.
This dumb bullshit better get overturned ffs
Kind of weird how people claim to love democracy but want to overturn the will of its voters when its something they disagree with.
Funny enough this one passing really goes to show how stupid most voters seem to be in WA now.
They literally want to overturn one law they voted for years ago and they want to have a state supreme court who have all agreed that the incoming millionaire tax can go ahead even if it breaks the states constitution.
The state Dems need some real DSA competition because at this point it’s all pointing towards corporatacy with a veiled control of an oligarchy.
I would ask our WA incumbents to reveal their minutes behind closed doors with lobbyists and full financial disclosures to be reviewed by a non political backed watchdog but the very same court we just voted in said “go pound cold wet sand”
Nah its not weird to want to overturn stupid harmful bullshit built on bigoted misinformation.
Democracy isn’t JUST voting for things and dealing with it. It’s the entire process within which there are mechanisms to overturn dumb illegal bullshit. Bullshit like subjecting young girls to molestation to soothe nazi hysteria.
Agreed with more DSA reps though no argument there.
Hey it’s the guy that voted Yes on repealing the millionaires tax in Washington. I wonder what other initiatives from Brian Heywood you voted Yes on. Maybe this one?
Going against a misleading discriminatory bill is not “going against the will of the people”. It’s funny that you’d say that, and in the same breath complain about the millionaire’s tax that you voted to repeal failing.
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The user you responded to exists to shit on the WA legislature, and let the Washington Lemmy community know they voted to repeal the millionaire tax. They’re more upset about that failing than the anti trans one passing.
Yeah, and this is why being an informed voter is so difficult. There was one initiative on my ballot that was worded like “create funding for programs to reduce homelessness.” Sounds nice, right? Sounds progressive? Sounds like something I’d want, for sure!
After googling it, it was basically just giving tons of money to cops… So that the cops can buy new tactical gear, to march into homeless camps like jackboots and beat the shit out of homeless people while torching all of their stuff. But sure, it’s “reducing homelessness.” I guess if we tear down the homeless camps and violently chase all of the homeless people out of town, there are no more homeless people? That’s how it works, right?
