Genuine questions.
What’s up with China’s history of backing reactionary forces and siding with the us against socialist countries/projects?
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Why did China back and support the Khmer Rouge alongside the US to fight Vietnam?
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Why did China back and support the Mujahadeen alongside the US to fight the communists of Afghanistan and the Soviet Union?
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Why did China back and support the FNLA and UNITA alongside the US to fight the MPLA and the Cubans in Angola?
I’m fairly ignorant of all these so I’m asking for clarification on the subjects as well as personal opinions.
China’s actual policy, regardless of what the party may think or feel is one of survival and bettering the conditions of the Chinese people at any cost. It’s that simple. Internationalism is dead. Maybe one day it can be revived but for now it’s every socialist project for itself.
In regards to Angola situation, China actually initially supported all three of them, providing support to FNLA, UNITA, and MPLA. The Chinese official position was that they were all “brotherly comrades” fighting for the same goal of Angolan liberation from Portuguese colonization. The Chinese even supported MPLA as early as 1958. These Chinese official position was that their role was only to help Angola become independent, and then let the Angolan people decide what kind of government they want after the fact, without interference from foreign powers.
This plan was disrupted when the Soviets declared MPLA the only legitimate revolutionary organization and then started heavily militarily backing them to take over all of Angola, which led to an outbreak of all-out civil war. The Chinese condemned this as interfering in Angola’s internal affairs, starting a very long bloody civil war, and believed that the Soviets were only doing this to establish a military presence in Angola to seize their resources. And thus the Chinese withdrew support from the MPLA around April 1974, but eventually withdrew support from both FNLA and UNITA as well in October 1975.
Chinese Marxists tend to have rather different views from Soviet Marxists. The latter tended to justify any intervention at all costs to spread socialism. The former tended to argue that socialism is something that must come from the bottom-up through grassroots movements, i.e. people have to want socialism, and that imposing it from the outside from the top-down can be rather counterproductive as people would then see socialism as an outside colonizing system to fight against if they want their own independence.
Some further examples are Yugoslavia and Poland. Chinese Marxist literature tends to be more critical of Soviet treatment of these countries, with the Soviets labeling Yugoslavia’s Autonomous Socialism as revisionist, and suppressing the Eighth Plenum of the Polish United Workers’ Party which advocated for socialism with Polish characteristics. Chinese Marxists argue that, whether or not these other models of socialism would succeed or fail, it is not the role of a foreign socialist power to decide that for them. Stalin even openly declared that “socialism with X characteristics” doesn’t even exist and is itself an anti-communist position, that there can only be one socialism and that is necessarily the Stalin Model.
In China’s Century of Humiliation they were subjugated brutally by foreign powers, and so they started to see the Soviet approach as a kind of imperialism. This was not unique to Mao or even Mao’s own analysis. Not all Chinese leadership agreed that the USSR had returned to capitalism. Indeed, even after Mao died, the anti-Soviet policies carried on, because what Chinese leadership generally agreed upon, regardless of whether or not the USSR was socialist or capitalist, is that their method of spreading revolution was expansionist ultimately for their own benefit of their own system and not out of a genuine desire to liberate the world.
If you honestly buy into the idea that the primary reason China was hostile to the USSR under Mao’s rule was because of Khrushchev’s economic “revisionism,” then you would predict that after Mao, they would become more friendly. But Deng Xiaoping’s administration maintained this exact same policy, describing Soviet influence in these bordering regions as: 中苏关系正常化三大障碍 (the three major obstacles to the normalization of Sino-Soviet relations) often just shortened to 三大障碍 (the three major obstacles). The fear of Soviet expansion was a widespread fear and arguably much of Mao’s ideological justification for the split was really just a post-hoc justification for it.
The “three obstacles” referred to the fact that the Soviets had troops in Afghanistan on their western border, Mongolia on their northern border, and Vietnam on their southern border, and were basically surrounded. So, to understand why they’d make such a decision, you have to see it from the Chinese perspective: they just came out of being brutally oppressed over a century from expansionist powers, and they were surrounded at all sides by another power they started to see as expansionist, and so Chinese leadership started to see the USSR as an existential threat to their very existence. They then started to support anti-Soviet groups in these groups for that reason, to push out Soviet influence.
Khrushchev’s role was primarily his pulling out of the nuclear program with China. The USSR and China had been working together to research nuclear weapons such that China could become a nuclear power, but Khrushchev made a deal with the US which required, on the Soviet’s end of the bargain, to stop helping China build nukes. The USSR then pulled out of China, withdrew all their scientists, and even burned all the research and documents to try and prevent the Chinese from building nukes.
The “revisionism” was less about Khrushchev abandoning certain economic principles, but about him treating the Stalin Model as a dogmatic universal that should be enforced upon every country by force, and their own grassroots movements suppressed in order to do so. Stalin had expressed this to a degree but Khrushchev made it far worse to the point where the Chinese started to become very fearful of the USSR.
These Chinese official position was that their role was only to help Angola become independent, and then let the Angolan people decide what kind of government they want after the fact, without interference from foreign powers.
at least imho, china sending arms to the apartheid and cia-supported savimbi gang very much counts as “interference from foreign powers”.
and there is zero proof that they “withdrew” any aid post-1975: this declassified document from 3 december 1975 records american-chinese discussions of aid to anti-communist forces, and this resource states that the carter administration (1977-1981!) brokered chinese arms sales to savimbi’s forces amounting to 800 tons of weapons.
The “three obstacles” referred to the fact that the Soviets had troops in Afghanistan on their western border, Mongolia on their northern border, and Vietnam on their southern border, and were basically surrounded.
as another commenter already helpfully pointed out, the ussr only moved troops into vietnam after china invaded. also, the soviets had every right to station troops in mongolia, as they were there by invitation of the mongolian government. china was also behaving aggressively, conducting illegal aggressions against the soviet union at damansky island and other locations, not to mention establishing extensive ties with the cia by helping them build anti-soviet espionage stations in northern china (project chestnut), with deng even receiving an exclusive tour of langley.
Chinese Marxists tend to have rather different views from Soviet Marxists. The latter tended to justify any intervention at all costs to spread socialism. The former tended to argue that socialism is something that must come from the bottom-up through grassroots movements, i.e. people have to want socialism, and that imposing it from the outside from the top-down can be rather counterproductive as people would then see socialism as an outside colonizing system to fight against if they want their own independence.
Lofty phrases with little substance. USSR did not invade capitalist countries to forcibly turn them socialist, it supported existing socialist and decolonial movements.
It requires incredible mental gymnastics to answer the question “why did China join USA to support reactionary jihadists, Pol Pot, and apartheid-aligned anti-communists against genuine socialist movements with broad popular support” with “because socialism must come from the bottom-up through grassroots movements”.
Soviets labeling Yugoslavia’s Autonomous Socialism as revisionist, and suppressing the Eighth Plenum of the Polish United Workers’ Party which advocated for socialism with Polish characteristics.
Soviets did not suppress the Eighth Plenum. They only demanded that Poland commits to remaining socialist, staying in the Warsaw Pact, and not expelling Soviet troops stationed in Poland (under condition they are not used to interfere in Poland’s internal affairs).
Plenum went forward with all their proposals. Soviet-aligned members of party leadership were removed and Gomułka, who was previously expelled from the party as a right-nationalist deviationist, was elected leader. Proposed measures to decentralise power and institute worker self-management went through. So your assertion that USSR enforced a rigid model on Poland is markedly false.
Gomułka very soon reversed those changes but those were internal Polish decisions because the party quickly realised it actually needs centralised power for the socialist project to survive - or because they lusted for power, whatever explanation works for you, what matters is there is zero evidence this reversal was forced by Moscow.
Please also remember Mao himself was as ideologically rigid as Stalin. You bring up Yugoslavia but Mao also condemned Tito and Yugoslavian worker self-management as revisionism. He condemned Khrushchev’s reforms as revisionism too - why not let USSR blaze their own path if imposing the Stalin Model from outside is so bad?
The “three obstacles” referred to the fact that the Soviets had troops in Afghanistan on their western border, Mongolia on their northern border, and Vietnam on their southern border, and were basically surrounded.
This is again misleading, USSR only moved troops into Vietnam after China invaded Vietnam.
The USSR and China had been working together to research nuclear weapons such that China could become a nuclear power, but Khrushchev made a deal with the US which required, on the Soviet’s end of the bargain, to stop helping China build nukes. The USSR then pulled out of China, withdrew all their scientists, and even burned all the research and documents to try and prevent the Chinese from building nukes.
Two falsehoods here:
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Khrushchev never made such deal with the US (or provide archival source, documents from this era are declassified and publicly available). Khrushchev withdrew support for Chinese nuclear program because Mao started shelling Taiwan and Khrushchev didn’t want to be dragged into a nuclear war with the USA.
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There was no burning of research and documents. In fact once the cat was out of the bag there was no putting it back. China simply continued their nuclear program without Soviet help.
Stalin had expressed this to a degree but Khrushchev made it far worse to the point where the Chinese started to become very fearful of the USSR.
Exactly the opposite is true. Post-Stalin USSR afforded Soviet Bloc countries greater ideological, political, and economic freedom, expanded its support to non-socialist decolonial movements, and supported the Non-Aligned Movement.
Overall a lot of this hinges on simply assuming that Mao’s paranoia about USSR had merits despite all archival evidence to the contrary.
Mao feared that Khrushchev is starting a capitalist restoration and wants to make a deal with the USA against China, and decided to do it first. However no declassified Soviet or US documents support this.
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Stalin even openly declared that “socialism with X characteristics” doesn’t even exist and is itself an anti-communist position, that there can only be one socialism and that is necessarily the Stalin Model.
Curious where you are getting this part. Because it sounds almost like painting Stalin as egotistical and dogmatic about marxism.
I believe they are alluding to this quote
You speak of some kind of Sinified [Chinese-style] socialism; there is no such thing in nature. There is no Russian, English, French, German, Italian socialism, just as there is no Chinese socialism. There is only one Marxist-Leninist socialism. It is another matter that in building socialism it is absolutely necessary to take into account the specific features of a given country. But socialism is a science, which necessarily has, like any science, general laws, and if you deviate from them, the construction of socialism is doomed to inevitable failure.
From the 1949 meeting between Stalin and a delegation from the CPC.
I see. Maybe I am jumping to conclusions, but at a glance, it reads like a misunderstanding between Stalin and the delegation. Because my understanding of “socialism with Chinese characteristics” is that it is intended to mean socialism with “the specific features of a given country” taken into account, not some kind of deviation from the science of it.
I think it makes more sense when you listen to Chairman Mao reflecting on Stalin in regards to China in 1956.
Stalin did a number of wrong things in connection with China. The “Left” adventurism pursued by Wang Ming in the latter part of the Second Revolutionary Civil War period and his Right opportunism in the early days of the War of Resistance Against Japan can both be traced to Stalin. At the time of the War of Liberation, Stalin first enjoined us not to press on with the revolution, maintaining that if civil war flared up, the Chinese nation would run the risk of destroying itself. Then when fighting did erupt, he took us half seriously, half sceptically. When we won the war, Stalin suspected that ours was a victory of the Tito type, and in 1949 and 1950 the pressure on us was very strong indeed. Even so, we maintain the estimate of 30 per cent for his mistakes and 70 per cent for his achievements. This is only fair.
However Stalin was still held in the up most (utmost?) esteem, it remained understood that while there were contradictions present that the Soviet Union still held China as equal and sovereign (hence the outrage when the secret speech took place). It was only when Krushchev came to power those contradictions became the wedge that became the sino soviet split as Krushchev very clearly did not believe in Chinese sovereignty or equality.
Interesting, thanks for the context.
The Sino-Soviet Split was fucking stupid, basically.
Like, the Chinese were correct that the USSR was making revisionist changes that would prove detrimental to its long term survival. But the hostile foreign policy that China took towards the USSR was also a huge fucking problem.
They could have easily sided with the USSR in foreign policy matters, and viewing them as an wayward Socialist project, still worth supporting against Imperialist aggression. But they didn’t do that. And in many ways we’re still living with the consequences.
It’s a big part of why modern Chinese foreign policy is so cautious.
While the Sino-Soviet split was a tragedy for the international communist movement, framing it as a mere “stupid” policy error overlooks the material contradictions that made unity so difficult. The core of the matter was not simply a disagreement over economic theory, but a fundamental divergence in how the Soviet Union approached other socialist projects. From the post-Stalin era under Khrushchev onward, it became clear that Moscow increasingly viewed fraternal parties as subordinate satellites rather than sovereign equals.
And the way many Socialists today speak of other socialists with mildly differing views, or who have made unpopular compromises, leads me to believe we will make the exact same mistakes again.
Spoiler
Specifically thinking of Delcy in Venezuela and the modern MPLA, but you could expand this to whatever - PSL, Trots, Maoists, Lula, Arab Socialism, American electoralist DemSocs. They may not be perfect, they may not be viable, they may not even be good, but they’re all part of the same struggle in my mind.
Except ACP obviously
I’ll try to answer all 3:
- Sino-Soviet split (Vietnam was aligned with the USSR)
- Sino-Soviet split (Afghanistan was aligned with the USSR)
- (drum roll) yeah it’s Sino-Soviet split too (Angola and Cuba were aligned with the USSR)
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Vietnam was keeping supplies intended for the Rouge for itself during the vietnam war, kicked out its chinese minority, was making noise on the back then informal China-Vietnam border, sided with the soviets during the split(Vietnam didn’t really have a choice), upheld the claims of South Vietnam on the SCS after unification and invaded Cambodia (Vietnam already knew of the genocides of the Rouge, China didn’t). To China it looked as if they had a growing Vietnamese empire to their south allied to the now hostile USSR to their north. The PRC needed a counter weight. Ultimately China settled staying in a border war with Vietnam until the 80s to fuck them economically, it was shitshow for both sides. Both communist parties have mended ties only recently and the vietnamese people are still pissed.
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Sino-Soviet-Split.
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Sino-Soviet-Split
a growing Vietnamese empire
😂
I am a bit suspicious of the slanted portrayal of Vietnam (could you provide sources); the positive portrayal of China is also suspicious to me.
Sorry, I came to those conclusions at various points. Deng was pretty open why he was pissed with Vietnam, for example. I think in the interview he did with that anglo reporter he said it at some point.
As for the SCS stuff, you can go digging when that pub brawl began. Been a while since I did it.
And most importantly: When two former long-time close allies end up at war with each other and one side claims to be completely without fault (Vietnams line), that’s suspicious. That’s war propaganda 101 “we are without fault, out enemy attacked without reason!”
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