seems like the ‘safe’ public opinion is ‘we stand behind israel’ and the left opinion is palestinian support
i don’t live there i don’t have any particular interest or fascination with the region i don’t understand any of this pls don’t yell at me
It’s pretty easy to explain: It’s complicated.
Basically, it’s a conflict that had been running for a really long time.
Before WW1, the area of Israel/Palestine was inhabited by Arabs and controlled by the Ottomans.
During WW1, the Brits promised the Arabs that they’d back an independent arab state there, if the Arabs revolted and successfully kicked out the Ottomans.
The Arabs did their part, so Britain, being as trustworthy as ever, turned around and divvied the Ottoman empire up between them, and Britain got control over what was then called Mandatory Palestine, which the Arabs saw as a betrayal. The official plan was for the Brits to rule the Mandate “until such time as they are able to stand alone”.
At the same time, the Zionist Jews wanted to have a national state, where they could live without persecution, and many European nations, where antisemitism was rampant, wanted them gone from Europe, so they kinda had an agreement there. The original plan was to move them to a part of Uganda, but that fell through so Palestine was chosen.
Already long before the national state was created, lots of Jews moved there and created settlements. The Arabs there weren’t exactly happy about that massive influx of settlers and the Jews also weren’t happy about the natives. Each of them started an uprising over the following years, and with tensions rising, the UN drafted a partition plan.
While the opinion of the Jews over that partition plan was ambivalent, though leaning towards being happy about it, the Arabs were decidedly unhappy about it. They thought, that the UN was overstepping it’s rights and that the partition plan was violating the principles of self-determinism set forth by the UN charter.
So a war broke out between the Arabs (including surrounding arab countries) and the Jews there, which resulted in a victory for the Jews. After that, the area was divided up between Jewish Israel, the west bank area controlled by Jordan and inhabited by Arabs, and the tiny area called Gaza strip, controlled by Egypt and inhabited by Palestinians.
The area the Palestinians received after the war was significantly smaller than what was outlined in the UN partition plan.
In 1967, during the six-day war, Israel captured the Gaza strip and it’s been under Israeli occupation ever since. In 1993, Israel granted the Gaza strip limited self-government over the area. Basically, Gaza was allowed to self-government about matters of the populated areas, but Israel remained in control in regards to the airspace, the territorial waters and all border crossings except the one towards Egypt, which is controlled by Egypt.
In 2007, Hamas took over the government of Gaza. Most of the world classify them as a terror organisation, and they have been e.g. shooting home-build missiles into Israel and also have mounted a few small-scale insurrections and attacks against Israel.
Israel on the other hand has been casually bombarding and killing Palestinians for a very long time. Also, they let Israeli settlers illegally settle in occupied Palestinian territories, which the Palestinians are not so happy about.
From 2008 until 2020, roughly 5600 Palestinians and 250 Israelis (including many civilians on both sides) have been killed, and 115 000 Pakistanis and 5600 Israelis have been injured (source: https://www.statista.com/chart/amp/16516/israeli-palestinian-casualties-by-in-gaza-and-the-west-bank/).
The Gaza strip is pretty much an outdoor prison, with a massive population density, low life expectency and abysmal living standards. People are generally not allowed to leave from there. Israel routinely cuts water/electricity, which are both supplied by Israel in response to attacks from Palestine.
All in all, it’s a right mess that’s been brewing for over 100 years, with no easy solutions. By now, everyone who has been responsible for causing the original mess is dead. Of the leadership neither side is in the right, both sides are making everything worse. There is no solution in sight.
The Palestinians fight the oppression by killing civilians, the Israelis counter by killing civilians and making life even more hell for the people in the occupied territories, who in turn fight even harder and kill more civilians.
Reducing oppression is hardly possible, since that would allow the Palestinians to mount bigger attacks.
Which brings us to the current situation. Palestinians managed to break out of Gaza, at many places even destroying the perimeter fence. They then invaded some towns and a music festival in the border regions, killing a few hundred Israeli civilians and taking some more hostage. Israel countered by bombarding the Gaza strip, killing a few hundred Palestinian civilians. They also, again, cut power and electricity, and the whole western world then responded with cutting food supply.
This in turn will radicalize the Palestinians even more, who will fight harder, and who knows where it ends. Probably with the Israelis finally finding the same answer to “the Palestinian Question” that Germany found for the “Jewish Question” in the 1940s.
Really nice summary. Heads up you say Pakistani instead of Palestinian a few times.
Never knew about the Uganda thing. Fascinating. Must read more on that.
Thanks, sorry about that. I meant Palestinian.
Another indigenous population beginning with P who got fucked over by brits who had never been to the area. Easy mistake to make.
I mean, I do know the difference between Pakistani and Palestinians. It’s just that I know significantly more Pakistanis than Palestinians, so my brain autocompleted wrong.
Sorry to all Palestinians/Pakistanis I might have offended here!
Having said that, the Palestine territory was not chosen arbitrarily, but probably because of the significance Jerusalem has to the Jews, where their ancient kingdom and temple had been.
Reducing oppression is hardly possible, since that would allow the Palestinians to mount bigger attacks.
I feel like there are many things Israel does that are not useful in stopping attacks and ending them should be possible. Intentionally killing civilians and destroying civilian infrastructure are among those.
Hamas intentionally uses civilian buildings and schools as ammo warehouses. Israel aims for the ammunition and ignores the civilian casualties. Neither side wants to avoid civilian deaths in Gaza.
It’s totally true that killing civilians means you radicalize all their family and friends.
In 2006, the newly elected Hamas government actually stepped down during a negotiated cease fire and agreed to a unity government.
Then the Israelis accidentally (at least according to their statements) bombed a residential building, killing 24 civilians including children and injuring many more.
That’s when the Hamas took back the government (some would point out, illegally, since there was no official election after they stepped down) and resumed the attacks on Israel.
But all in all, it’s a prisoner’s dilemma situation. The current situation sucks, but for both sides it would probably be worse, at least in short-term, to unilaterally reduce aggressions without the other side doing the same.
Understandably (after all this bloodshed over such a long period), there are quite a few people on both sides who will stop at nothing short but the eradication of the other side. That’s not exactly a viable basis for negotiations.
And with every attack, every uprising, every repression and every civilian killed, this gets worse.
for both sides it would probably be worse, at least in short-term, to unilaterally reduce aggressions without the other side doing the same.
I don’t see how, as far as attacking non-military targets goes.
It is rather hard not to do that when Hamas will hide behind civilians and set up shop in civilian centers.
Not everything they do can be explained away by that.
Just came to say thanks for the elaborated summary. Was already informed about the greater outlinings, but this adds some interesting details about the conflict.
This will be a ‘thing’ for many more decades. The hatred on both sides is so deeply grounded…quite depressing to see.
The really difficult thing is that nobody who caused the situation in the first place is still alive. Almost every Israeli or Palestinian alive today was born into this inherited conflict. So everyone there can argue that they have the right to be there in their own way. And everyone there has decades of inherited conflict and trauma. This is not going to get better any time soon.
Almost every
A majority, but to say almost every is an exaggeration. There are lots of Israelis who were not born into the conflict but choose to migrate into it. That said they tend to move in from places that have an antisemitism problem like the US and Ukraine, and in the case of Ukraine there are obviously additional factors for leaving, so I find it hard to blame individuals though they are fueling a colonial project even if they don’t vocalize support for it.
Fair point. I put the immigrants into the “born into the conflict” category, because they, too, didn’t create the conflict to begin with. But you are right, they willingly moved into the situation, for whatever reason that made sense to them.
It’s post like this that Lemmy needs that just make my day because I learn just a bit more than what I knew 5 minutes ago, thank you for the thoughtful post.
your summary is excellent but I think you have a typo re: Pakistanis, did you mean Palestinians? it’s hard to terrorize the people 6 countries and 3500km to the west.
From 2008 until 2020, roughly 5600 Palestinians and 250 Israelis (including many civilians on both sides) have been killed, and 115 000 Pakistanis and 5600 Israelis have been injured (source: https://www.statista.com/chart/amp/16516/israeli-palestinian-casualties-by-in-gaza-and-the-west-bank/).
Yeah, that’s a typo. I edited it already, but there’s a long standing lemmy bug that causes edits to not be propagated to all instances. So if you view it from the instance I am on, it’s ok, but on other instances you still see the typo.
It was discussed below already.
Pretty good summary, but I would object, that “Hamas” is something like a “government” in Gaza. It’s a terrorist group that took control of the Gaza territory and it’s people without ever having been elected by someone (in fact, they are suppressing any kind of election since they took over the power from the Palestinian authorities). They are also using the Gaza population as “living shields” against counter strikes to their terror attacks. Nowadays they also have international hostages, which would make a counter-offensive even more difficult.
A possible - although very unlikely - solution to the conflict could be a de-radicaiisation on both sides and the Palestinians finally overthrowing the Hamas-regime and any other terrorist groups, because those are not fighting for Palestinian freedom, but for some crappy “Jihad” ideas and the destruction of Israel.
Unfortunately this will never happen…
Hamas was elected by Palestinians though.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Palestinian_legislative_election
That was almost 20 years ago. Was that the last election
A government doesn’t have to be democratically elected. Even a dictatorship that came into power due to a military coup is considered a government.
As long as the Hamas control the area, they are a government.
If you check out the corresponding Wikipedia section (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_Strip#Governance) you can see, that they are considered a government.
How long do you have? Here’s the very brief summary, and full disclaimer, I don’t have dog in this race.
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Jerusalem is an important place for both Jews and Muslims.
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They’ve been fighting over this space for two millenia. The Roman’s had it for a long time (Christian), the Ottomans had it for a long time (Islamic).
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After WW1 and the Ottomans were defeated, it passed onto the Turkish (Islamic).
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After WW2, with Britain now in control of it (Palestine) and with the surviving Jews now displaced worldwide with no country to live, the U.N decided to give Jews a new home and call this new place the State of Israel. They put Israel right in the middle of Palestine, which no Islamic nation could object to because they were all defeated in war.
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Since then, Jews call Israel their home country. Surrounding Islamic countries don’t recognise Israel and want the Jews to leave.
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Islamic nations including Egypt, Jordan, Lebanon, Iran, Syria have all gone to war with Israel (the 6-day War) to kick the Jews out. They’ve all lost because Israel is militarily backed by world powers. Israel is now a military powerhouse and have full control of the region.
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Israel allow Muslim Palestinians small areas to live in the area, namely Gaza and the West Bank, but they’re not particularity nice to the Muslims living there. This is the Palestinian/Israeli war that’s been going on for almost a century.
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This space is now two main religions crammed into a very small space. Both claim that it’s their ancestral land. Islamic nations don’t recognise Israel as a country. Most of the rest of the world does.
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Israel has become a defensive fortress with nukes, and is surrounded by five countries that hate it. No Islamic nation is strong enough to beat Israel. Skirmishes and shit fighting continues. Sometimes it gets serious. This week it got really serious.
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This fight will probably go on forever because of the religious significance of Jerusalem which neither the Israelis or Palestinians will ever give up claim to.
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So who’s right and who’s wrong? Probably neither. Probably both. Probably humans are just shit.
EDIT: I know there’s lots of missing parts here but honestly, the full story would be a semester of university worth of info. I tried to keep this ultra-digestible, without bias or conspiracy or finger pointing.
Thank you below for the corrections.
The only thing I’d add is “not particularity nice to the Muslims living there” is putting it mildly.
Because there’s always tension, Israel takes its security very seriously. Unlike most countries, who put a token effort into security most of the time, Israel really is an armed fortress. That makes it very easy for someone with an itchy trigger finger to shoot someone who didnt deserve shooting. Even with the best will in the world, it would happen from time to time.
That, of course, makes the Palestinians very angry. An angry population poses more of a threat, and is more likely to do something genuinely aggressive. The Israeli security is thus tightened further, and their soldiers get even itchier trigger fingers and around and around we go.
It doesn’t take long before everyone involved has a personal grudge for one reason or another, and things can get really vicious.
- After WW1 and the Ottomans were defeated, it passed onto the Turkish (Islamic).
- After WW2 the Turkish were defeated and they lost it to Britain. In the same war the surviving Jews were displaced worldwide and had no country to live, so the League of Nations (U.S, Britain, Canada, France mainly) decided to give Jews a new home and call this new place the State of Israel. They put Israel right in the middle of the British controlled Palestine, which no Islamic nation could object to because they were all defeated in war.
Turkey never fought in ww2. Turkey was already after ww1 completely stripped of territory in the Levant. There also was no league of nations after ww2 anymore, but the UN was founded. No Arabic nations were defeated in ww2. Some of 4. happened after ww1 not 2. The creation of Israel was heavily objected by the neighboring Arabic nations, see 6-Day-War.
Ahh, fair. I got some WW1 and WW2 details mixed up. I’ll edit so I’m not feeding false info.
They’ve been fighting over this space for two millenia.
It’s been on and off and off and off and off and off and off and off and off and on again.
It’s kinda like if the Italians showed up en masse in England, claiming that they have a right to the place, because the romans once held that area.
The Jews weren’t the first people in Israel either, not even in biblical times.
Thank you for recognizing that this stuff is not going on for a century or two, not even for centuries, but for millenia. The conflicts in the mesopotamian area are probably the oldest in the world. Reducing it to what happened after or shortly before WWII is like telling the history of the world/the universe starting from when homo sapiens came into place.
Trying to figure out who this land belongs to seems futile. How many great grandfather generations do you have to go back to make this part of soil “yours”? Is 10 enough? 15? 20? Imagine your family lived in this part of the region since 1000 AD just for someone to come and say they’ve been here since 900 AD so you are technically a foreign invader and don’t belong there. Give back your house.
I sometimes wonder if they go back further than the religions the conflict is supposedly based on. I mean, tribal conflicts have always been a thing, right?
Very comprehensive write up, but i think something a lot of answers miss out on is…well, who was there before the romans? The romans called the area Judaea…land of the Jews. Before the Romans the Seleucid Empire had to deal with several uprisings led by…the Jews (the maccabean revolt). Its not enirely accurate id say to say the jews just materialised in the region in the 1950s…
The romans called the area Judaea…land of the Jews.
Just a quick correction here. Judaea is actually named after Judah, son of Jacob.
The word ‘Jew’ comes from the place name Judaea, not the other way around.
Ooh i didnt know that TIL
There’s a lot right and a lot wrong in this
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Israel/Palestine was the ancestral home of the Hebrew (ie. Jewish) people, up until about 700AD.
From then, right up until 1948, it was held by the Arab people in the region, the people now known as Palestinians.
At the end of World War II, there were hundreds of thousands of displaced Jewish refugees all over Europe and the rest of the world - and no country really wanted to take them.
So the United Nations put some weight behind a rather niche interest group (the Zionists) who wanted to reclaim Palestine for the Jewish people, 1200 years after they left.
Palestine wasn’t OK with losing a major chunk of its land with no recompense, but the UN said tough shit sucks to be you lol, and gave them no choice, establishing the modern country of Israel within its borders, kicking out the Palestinians who had been living there for the past 1200 years and settling vast numbers of refugees in a ready-made country.
This held a certain amount of strategic value to the West, as a political, economic and military power base smack bang in the middle of the Middle East, standing opposed to the Arab nations surrounding it, and giving the west a foot in the door and a finger in all the pies, as it were.
As a result, Israel has had virtually unlimited economic and military aid from the west ever since, and become comfortably rich despite having no exports, resources or trade to speak of.
Since 1948, Palestine has made various efforts to reclaim some of its land - and each time, has been beaten back by the combined military might of the entire west, losing ever more territory with each attempt.
Israel now holds virtually all of Palestine, except for tiny fractured and scattered pockets of land - which they keep ‘settling’ - eg. annexing and invading, killing the Palestintian inhabitants, demolishing their homes, burning their farms and taking their land. Palestinians are allowed into Israel, but as second-class citizens in an apartheid regime, exploited for cheap labour.
Palestine no longer has the resources, organization, wealth or strength to maintain an actual military or to mount actual resistance - with guerilla warfare being the only tactic available. And of course where you have poverty and oppression, that’s fertile ground for radicalisation - and this has lead to exploitation by various terrorist groups.
Now, Gaza is a small contiguous chunk of Palestine, bordering on Egypt - and Israel has been blockading it for decades, severely limiting access to food, water, building materials, etc - basically a giant open-air prison camp, with severe reprisals (such as bombing schools and hospitals - collective punishment, which is a war crime) for any attacks on Israel.
It’s this region that’s been the source of the latest conflict - with Hamas (a very unpleasant bunch of people) launching a major offensive, consisting of both rocket strikes and armed incursions, targeting Israeli civilians.
There’s every indication that this was planned and supported by Iran, who have their own agenda, and are happy to see Palestinians and Israelis both get killed.
Israel has responded to the attacks by bombing Gaza quite indiscriminately, and shutting off power, water and food supplies entirely to all of Gaza.
Israel is continuing to act the victim/hero for its actions, as always, and is receiving a vast outpouring of western aid, support and political clout in return.
To complicate matters, half of the religious right in the US is fervently pro-Israel, because despite disapproving of Judaism for rejecting Jesus, they believe that biblical prophesy is predicated on Jewish control of Israel. Yes, seriously. They can’t have their Armageddon and be carried up to heaven unless the events in Revelations come to pass, and yeah.
Also, ever since WWII, Israel has been playing the fuck out of the antisemitism card, loudly declaring that any opposition to their policy and actions must be rooted in hatred of Jewish people, and is obviously just softening up the ground for neo-nazis. And of course, no politician wants to get tarred with that brush.
Meanwhile, children in Gaza are dying.
This is an incredible write up and really covered the bulk of it. I would say that Hamas should be called out a little more for their atrocities over the years, but you’re right in that they only exist due to radicilzation by way of Isreals policies. This is a case of both sides suck, and innocent people who had the bad luck of being born in the wrong place/time/religion will suffer.
The safe position is, Israel did bad things but Hamas is bad for wanting to commit genocide/attacking random festival. I think.
I said this in another thread and I will say it again here:
I always find it odd how people blame “extremists” and the Palestinians for this.
Israel starts to steal homes, land and killing men, children and women. No one bat an eye to that.
Then extremists and hate towards Israel came and bam, they are the bad ones suddenly.
Certainly what Hamas does is entirely wrong however - People cannot expect them be silent and get killed by Israeli forces.
This is what happens from decades upon decades of oppression.
This entire conflict was created by Israel stealing land and starting a genocide mission on Palestinians.
Yes when you kill other humans intentionally you are depraved. Doesn’t matter if you are american, Israeli, Chinese, or Palestinian.
Yes you can be oppressed and wronged.
Both can be true.
But the murderous part is your own decision. It needn’t be the only one.
I am pretty sure the entire conflict started because arabs deny the right of Israel to exist tho
Nope.
Before WW1 the area was inhabited by Arabs and controlled by the Ottomans.
During WW1, the Brits promised the Arabs an independent state of Palestine, if they revolt against the Ottomans and kick them out, which they did.
The Brits, being Brits, did what Brits do and kept control over that area, now called Mandatory Palestine, and wanted to keep controlling that area “until such time as they are able to stand alone”.
So this area was very much promised to the people who lived there for centuries.
At the same time, Zionist Jews wanted their own national state, and antisemites in Europe wanted the same, as long as that meant that the Jews where far away from Europe. So this unlikely alliance between Jews and Antisemites first looked at moving the Jews to Uganda, which was also controlled by the Brits. That plan fell through, and instead they promised them modern-day Israel. Of course without asking the natives who they promised the area too.
So lots of Jews moved there, which the natives didn’t like. Both sides mounted a bigger insurrection, until the UN, again without asking the natives, decided to split up the area between Jews and Palestinians.
The local arab population, aided by Jordan and Egypt, started a war, that Israel won. Israel then annexed a lot of land, that, according to the UN plan was promised to the Palestinians and since then they occupied the areas and ruled with an iron fist there. For each Israeli killed, they kill 20 Palestinians. Palestinians are not allowed to leave the area and Israel randomly turns off water, electricity and food supplies, whenever they feel like it.
Claiming “it’s just because Arabs don’t like Israel” is pretty one-sided.
What happened there is pretty much every right-extremist-conspiracy-theorist’s fever nightmare. A huge amount of foreign settlers immigrating, taking away land and supressing the local population. But instead of this being conspiracy nonsense that right-wing extremists spew to cause fear, it really happened there. And it was even much worse than the right-wing fear phantasies.
I agree with almost everything you said, except the first paragraph. Jews were living in that area for thousands of years, it’s not like they been dropped to a completely new territory.
So they did have historic ties with that land
Yes, there was a tiny minority of Jews in the area during Ottoman rule. But it was fewer people than Christians there. And almost all of the Jews that moved there to found Israel had no connection to the land at all.
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That’s okay! Wishing is a good thing. However I’m glad blocking exists on Lemmy.
EDIT: Would like to add on this, that it is kind of sad and unfortunate that you do not have a counter argument or even at least a valid one and thus you have to resort to such a thing.
Israel starts to steal homes, land and killing men, children and women.
Can I get a source for this? I’ve been living under a rock.
Israel killing children in 2022: https://www.savethechildren.net/news/2022-becomes-deadliest-year-palestinian-children-west-bank-over-15-years-save-children Israel taken over houses: https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/5/4/if-i-dont-steal-your-home-someone-else-will-jewish-settler-says
There was a few years ago before Pandemic about a Palestinian guy getting arrested for talking to an journalist regards his house been taken over by Israeli people. I will try to find that one as well. It was big on the news (at least in my country back then).
Thanks for the input. I haven’t been following this story closely.
why were they having a music festival next to a concentration camp?
No idea, but what I do know is that it’s not a justification for murdering them.
lol there is literally zero proof of this.
all sources are directly from the IDF.
news sites are already retracting their stories of it.
did you also believe the lie that babies were pulled out of incubators to drag us into the Iraq war?
BBC, CNN, ABC, etc aren’t retracting articles. Seems like you’re just making shit up
where is the proof?
Sorry bud, that’s cute, but you don’t get to where’s the proof me after literally making shit up. You want the proof? Try your fucking eyes. You sound like a holocaust denier.
https://news.yahoo.com/idf-says-wont-back-claim-150213726.html
hmmmmmm
and you sound like a TV race American that can be manipulated by the slightest bit of propaganda into supporting anything
Zero proof? Except the actual videos, you mean?
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Close.
Israel was and is bad for committing genocide.
Hamas is bad for doing a terrorism
Palestinians are apparently bad because the government the majority of them didn’t vote for is bad.
The true victims of this war, as always, are the civilians
Hamas is a bad palestinian group.
But palastine minus hamas really holds no fault. Israel is the antagonist between the two nations.
Hamas just just a terrorist response to that. And while terrorism is always bad, israel did actively cultivate that terror group.
Huh, interesting take. I guess Israel minus the settler hardliners is as unfaulty.
Meh… Israel helped make Hamas big, way before they were known as Hamas. Back then they just were an offshoot of the egyptian Muslim Brotherhood organisation. Fatah was/is secular and Israel sought to utilize islamist organizations agaibst Fatah, who they saw as their main opponent. And it worked. There was violence between secular and islamist palestinian organisations.
But -shock horror- the islamists turned out to be a greater threat to israel than the secular fatah.
It’s a little like 9/11. I vehemently disavow and condemn the attacks. But on the other hand, you kinda made your own bed so to speak.
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Do you mean palestinians in general? Or do you specifically mean hamas?
Cause the answer is different depending.
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Probably by fighting actual soldiers, not bombing civilians and kidnapping children.
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So, specifically palestinians in general?
I think based on what little I know of the region and the style of invasion, guerrilla tactics would likely be ideal. Finding some sort of ally on the global stage to help them argue their case against israels abundant political backing. Make the occupation as inconvenient for israels government as possible, while doing everything they can to shift the global publics opinion into sympathy for their fight.
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Without raping and murdering civilians, to start? Fuck Israel, but that doesn’t make Hamas the good guys.
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US and UK politicians have large Israel supporting populations (whether Christian evangelists, hard right nationalists (“i-rony”) or just old fashioned Zionist Jews) so they have to kiss the ring and support Israel.
Germany has a forever guilt for the Holocaust so they support Israel.
India is run by Hindu nationalists who have a psychopathic hatred of Muslims so they also support Israel.
Anyone else who has any decency or inner feeling of justice will support Palestinians for being subject to decades of occupation and apartheid and know that it’s utterly hypocritical to support Ukraine for resisting Russian aggression while condemning Palestinians for doing the same.
Anyone who has any decency or feeling of inner justice will support innocent civilians regardless of their country of origin, and will condemn terrorist acts and war crimes regardless of who commited them.
funny how they suddenly care about them while Palestinian civilians have brutally mistreated for decades.
this is like the teacher freaking out when the bullied kid finally fights back
True, but what often goes unreported is the massive scale at which Israel is killing Palestinians.
Check out this link for example: https://www.statista.com/chart/amp/16516/israeli-palestinian-casualties-by-in-gaza-and-the-west-bank/
Israel kills and injures roughly 20 Palestinians for each Israeli killed/injured by Palestine.
The current era of the conflict started in 2006, when the Hamas during a ceasefire stepped down from the government in favour of a less radical government to lead to a peace process. But then Israel bombed a residential building (they say by accident), killing 24 civilians including children and injuring many more.
That’s when the Hamas took back the power and restarted their attacks on Israel.
No argument there.
Anyone else who has any decency or inner feeling of justice will support Palestinians for being subject to decades of occupation and apartheid and know that it’s utterly hypocritical to support Ukraine for resisting Russian aggression while condemning Palestinians for doing the same.
This would sound a lot better if Hamas was not targeting civilians, which is not at all what the Ukrainian military is doing. Comparing these two is an insult to Ukraine.
It’s not as complicated as portrayed. Everyone has some kind of point. But the people controlling the attacks are pretty much assholes, and the citizens getting killed are innocent victims
Exactly, Israeli and Palestinian civilians are the victims.
It’s not a good idea to lump the left into “Palestinian support”. Some people on the left are still pro Israel, although probably a result of western propaganda. Those that are not pro Israel, all recognize that Israel is bad. The level of bad ranges from as little as kills women and children all the way to genocide. Some people take it as far as being anti Jew, which sucks because all of the Jews that wouldn’t live in Israel/support the oppression of those that were there first don’t live in Israel. The problem isn’t Jews, it’s western imperialism and Israel.
My take is, Israel was created 75 years ago by the US and UK as a way for the west to maintain control in the middle east when their previous efforts failed. Israel has never respected their borders, has constantly been expanding by brutal force, holds the Gaza strip hostage, and doesn’t allow Palestinians within their borders to leave or get citizenship. (I don’t recall the number of Palestinians within the border but 200,000 is sticking in my head?)
Israel’s “right” to the land is imposed by the west after WWII, and the reality is it was the home of Palestinians.
Now, on the other side of things, Hamas has expressed the desire to eradicate Jews from the earth multiple times. If they had the backing of the west the situation would be reversed, potentially worse. But I would argue Hamas wouldn’t be in power if Israel wasn’t formed 75 years ago. When millions of people are oppressed and murdered on the regular for 75 years, that’s a recipe for radicalization.
Oh, and I didn’t even get to the religious part. Islam is an abrahamic religion, a descendant of Judaism, although they don’t seem to like to talk about that. Jerusalem is the holy land of the Jews, and therefore it’s also the holy land of Islam (and technically Christians too, although I don’t think any of them care anywhere near as much). Both the Jews in Israel and the Palestinians believe they are gods chosen people of that land. I would say most Jews today don’t feel the need to own that land, but most Jews in Israel do. Trump moved the capital of Israel to Jerusalem which was a dick move, because it was technically still shared territory at that point. But anyway, radical religious conservatives become terrorists when given the right environment.
My final take, Israel and Hamas are both terrorist organizations who desire eradication of the other ethnicity, but Israel has the backing, propaganda, and sympathy of the West.
BTW the Gaza strip holds 2 million palestinians, not just 200k.
I was referring to those within Israel’s borders when I said 200k, but the clarification matters so thanks!
He moved the US embassy, not Israel’s capital. I’m sure he would have loved that much direct power over a nation-state, though. Also yeah, a dick move.
Recognized != Moved
I guess that’s debatable. Given that Israel itself came into existence when the US and UK recognized it as a state, I consider recognizing Jerusalem as the capital the same thing as moving it from Tel Aviv, but maybe that’s misleading because it ignores nuance.
So where do you want the jews that are currently in Israel to go? Without the state of Isreal and a good military those people would die in that region, and not all of them agree with the current Israeli government. I agree the state is doing terrible things, but so is the US and I don’t think the answer there is to destroy the us
I didn’t say the answer was to destroy Israel. I don’t think it should have existed in the first place, and Zionism is just more religious imperialism, but that doesn’t mean destroy Israel. It also doesn’t mean alllow Israel to basically commit genocide in response to an attack that was a response to decades of oppression and murder.
I don’t know where you got the idea that I want to destroy Israel, in the 75 years that it’s been there, plenty of people have been there their entire life at this point. It’s a shitty situation all around.
Ill give you my two cents:
Palestinians are justified in fighting Israel until that occupation is no longer considered a country, however, the Hamas are committing atrocities against civilians, leading many to refer to them as terrorists. The argument for the Hamas (not all Palestinians) is that Israel has committed atrocities against Palestinians for almost a century, while being backed by the most powerful countries in the world, and that retaliation from the Hamas is justified.
Personally, I’m happy to see anyone resisting Israel, and don’t believe any political compromise (although preferable) will cut it except the dissolution of Israel.
Best summary I’ve seen so far. I hope one day that Palestinians will be free from living under a fascist government. I just don’t think the terrorist local government is the right vessel for change. Call me naive, but I miss PLO.
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Little bully got the nerve up to kick big bully in the nuts. Big bully didn’t like that and now has little bully in a sleeper hold while punching little bully in the nuts repeatedly.
More news to come.
Honestly I wonder if Hamas was goaded into this by Russia and Iran. They’re following the russian playbook for WARCRIMES obviously.
Hamas have plenty of backing. Israel may suffer heavily if they get into a protracted war by invading Palestine.
absolutely no doubt; and they may feel emboldened to attack neighboring states that they assume supported the operation. it’s an absolute shit sandwich.
Killing hundreds of civilians sure is just kicking a bully.
It’s a complicated can of worms. Good luck getting a thorough, unbiased opinion from strangers on the Internet. The more you read about all the different political and religious factions involved in the Israel-Palentine conflict, the more you will find that it’s a tangled mess of alliances, political desires, religious convictions, and international proxy fights that reach back a century or more.
Image showing land ownership changes over the last century:
https://sites.psu.edu/anaouf2/files/2017/02/israel-palestine_map_19225_2469-vrwani.jpg
Wtf! So Israel is the bad guy?
It depends on who you chat to.
The Rhetoric from Hamas (militant organisation who seek Palestines liberation, also deemed a terrorist organisation by numerous countries and organisations such as the UK), who are backed by Iran is literally we will wipe Israel (jews) off the planet. After having the Nazis and other groups attempt to do that previously, there is definitely an argument that Israel are defending themselves and have the right to do so.
Would you ever feel comfortable with a neighbour who is a murderer of a member of your family even if you owned an arsenal of guns and had the police in a car watching your property?
Palestine isn’t recognised globally as a country whilst Israel is a ‘Western’ country in the middle East and the ally of many countries such as the UK and USA.
Also Palestine and Hamas are not the same thing. Its like sayingb the KKK is representative of all of the USA.
The whole situation from its inception after ww2 to now is fucked.
The conflict is a pr
i think its worth looking further back in time too.
where it would be yellow for a thousand years, then green again? how far back do you go for authenticity? People have been fighting over this land since 3000bc. Let’s just go back 500,000 years and we can all agree it’s no one’s fucking land.
Go back 4.5 billion years and its not even land, just a seething cauldron of lava.
my man, go back 4.5b is my motto…
TFW the time traveller accidentally types 4.5b instead of 4.5m in the console
I just checked and looks like Israel and British were no different. No wonder hamas attacked as this is not one sided. This war has been brewing from a long time but at least now I got a clear picture.
This war has happened many times before, Arab states either funding or directly participating in an invasion of Israel with the goal of eliminating it.
This is a situation that transcends good guy/bad guy. On any side of the matter you can point to atrocities that the other side has committed, agreements and international laws that they’ve broken, things that could justify violence if you really want to justify violence.
Yeah but you can’t say that it’s “antisemitic”
1967 looks the same as the prior image?
This map is great, time and space wise
I felt like a safe default option is treating both HAMAS terracts and israeli oppression of palestinians as bad and continuously fueling each other. One is right-in-your-face brutal, one is rather impersonal and systemic. That’s the baseline.
Then, opinions start to differ by who is historically to blame there or who can affect this problem and try to solve it (without any final solution some radicals want). Israel is claimed to be that, in both cases but by different parties. Two major schools of sofa thoughts are either free Palestine (and I hope it’s also free from, not for fucking HAMAS of all people?) or Israel handling it whatever it takes and staying as a beacon of the international influence (control?) in the Middle East. Whatever, pick your poison.
There are influxes of hell knows what in discussing this ongoing shitstorm, from infantilizing palestinians to adoring the jewish ethnostate. I feel it’s vital not to engage in deciding the future for these groups of people having a bloody conflict we don’t really understand, but to support humanitarian causes, relief for those affected, and reaching out to those who can help freeze this conflict. It’s hard to talk over exploding munition.
My general sympathy is with the Palestinians who struggle from systemic oppression, but defo not with the atrocities committed by Hamas. How one can support and excuse the recent events is beyond me.
Just because you’re oppressed doesn’t mean you can just go out there and slaughter random people. I mean they even killed tourists, who have no role in this ethnical conflict. But I don’t think they even care…
Hamas are awful, and murdering the innocent is always vile. The problem is that both sides have an endless “but they started it!” going on. Hamas terrorists kidnapping and murdering innocent people: awful. Isreali military bombing innocent people :awful. Both sides claim to be defending themselves. Both sides are making things worse for themselves and others.
But Isreali will win by slowly murdering the Palestinians. Hamas will not win by occasionally murdering Israelis. Because the combined forces of almost all Western governments are onside with the Isreali government.
So, illegal terrorist acts are rightly called out, and funding to Palestine stopped until it can be proven the money won’t go to Hamas. But, even when the UN or indvidual countries call out Isreal for war crimes or illegal actions, they don’t stop funding their military. Per capita, Isreal spends more on its military than the USA (Israel (~$2770), United States (~$2405) with the USA providing 20% of Isreal military spending. So it’s an extremely lopsided bothsidesbad situation.
https://usafacts.org/articles/how-much-military-aid-does-the-us-give-to-israel/
Too many countries/companies profit from this conflict. The economy has adapted to it & is built on it. So are the politics… There is no winner besides religious fundamentalism and capitalism.
Can’t see your image properly btw, it’s not loading. Neither on sync nor on liftoff.
An apartheid state experienced an attack from a terrorist group. More violence ensues.
The state didn’t experience the attack, innocent civilians did.
Civilians of an apartheid state and civilians of an occupied territory absolutely are the ones experiencing the violence.
Yes, they both are.
Semantics
Ah you are on of those antisemantics everyone keeps warning me about!
If you ask for the “Why” often enough, it always comes down to Antisemitism.
Israel wouldn’t exist if not for the unhinged antisemitism of German Nazis in the 1930/40s.
In the last 20 years, Israel found itself to need new settlements, with all the accompanying political changes and pressures. Why? - because many Jews from all over the world migrated there. Why? - Antisemitism in their home countries makes those a less habitable place than an Israel, even though it is continuously on the brink of a war.
And this doesn’t even touch the rampant antisemitism in the Muslim world that wants to drive the Jews into the ocean and doesn’t accept a state Israel under any circumstances.
No, Israel doesn’t need much of the settlement land.
Well then the only explanation is that the Jews are pure evil and need to be driven into the ocean. /s
There’s another explanation: there is a religiously zealous segment of israeli society that is the main driver of many illegal settlements. Additionally the state of Israel sometimes wields its institutional force against palestinians, especially in east Jerusalem. Citing ‘demographic concerns’ as a reason for giving building permits to israelis and not to palestinians should probably not happen in a non ethno state.
All that is true, but in the greater picture of the Middle East
conflictcrisis it’s a mere drop in the water.
No if you ask for the why enough it all boils down to selfhatred
People can hate themselves damn well without becoming antisemites.
Unless they are themselves Jewish…
Philosoraptor.jpg
Yes, but not the other way around
