The paradox of tolerance is about absolute/unlimited tolerance. One can set limits on tolerance and respect the human rights of the intolerant, it’s not mutually exclusive.
Btw, the combination of “X people don’t deserve human rights” and “those who don’t support taking rights away from X are equal to X” is especially atrocious.
If people break the law, we restrict their freedom. Many seem to oppose that idea nowadays, or at least claim to. There’s a certain irony in that. But yes, if an individual breaks the social contract in a manner deemed “against the law”, then certain rights are removed from them.
There’s no paradox if you look at it as a social contract. If you don’t uphold your part of the contract (tolerating others) then you aren’t entitled to benefits from the contract (being tolerated by others).
The tolerance paradox is bullshit. Source: Daryl Davis, the black dude who converted a ton (like over 80) KKK members by just being a tolerant human to them.
You have to tolerate the person, not the message. You can say “you’re a valid human being” and “the stuff that comes out of your mouth is actually terrible” at the same time. Doing anything else pushes all of those valid humans with bad ideas together and makes a big echo chamber.
He didn’t say we should just say gas them to death (like they’d do to some of us in a heartbeat), he just pointed out they deserve no right to be aggressive against minorities.
I see no issue there. If they want to be decent citizens there’s an easy solution to that; stop being a nazi.
Edit: I otherwise agree with your comment, as they probably need some deprogramming to actually achieve said solution.
“they’d do that to us in a heartbeat” is both wrong (not every person who entertains these ideas actually wants to kill anyone) and also not even a good point. If you want to improve the world noticeably, you have to be BETTER THAN not the same as. Go talk to a nazi, actually understand what they think and feel, and figure out where that disconnect is.
So you’re saying for example a woman gets brought up in an environment where she’s raised as a nazi you think that it’d be acceptable for someone to rape and beat her?
I don’t really think you do, I’m not going to bother listing other examples but you get the point - what you’re saying is not only absurd but it’s clearly not what you actually believe.
All people are people, it’s that simple and there’s no more to it.
No, I was saying Nazis have a history of death and destruction, while people leaning towards democracy tend to be a little more gentle with their fellow man.
Nobody deserves to be beaten or raped and I certainly didn’t imply that.
You literally said they should have no rights, I get that you hadn’t thought about what you were saying but I really think it’s important to think about the implications of things we say.
I’d link that clip everyone always uses about the law Vs satan but it’s overused, surfice to sau dehumanising humans isn’t a thing good people do - and yes I know it’s popular to at the moment but when I was a kid everyone thought calling things gay as an insult was a great thing and we as a society grew from that so we can grow from this.
I obviously meant they shouldn’t have any rights to practice their nazism or do harmful things to whomever they dislike so much, not that they shouldn’t have any human rights.
I feel like this should’ve been fairly obvious given the context of the conversation. Human rights should always be the first concern no matter who it concerns. Do you think nazis feel the same way?
The first sentence you posted is exactly the thread that line of thought leads down. Disenfranchised people need to be talked to, met with empathy from the people they’ve been told are The Other. That’s the only way to destigmatize the two from each other.
Fucking nazi’s taking Dead Kennedys satires as straight-faced and messing up the concert scene so they wrote this little song which left very little space for misunderstanding (even for nazi idiots).
I like folk music and industrial music. The overlap of the two seems to also have a disproportionate overlap of … what’s the best way to put it?… fascist-adjacent music. Imagery, themes, etc.
Am I a fascist? No.
Are the artists fascist? I don’t know, Boyd Rice Douglas P/Death In June sure has had some controversies about him, but he’s not been banned from streaming services. But In some ways I don’t care, I don’t have the time to unpick every lyric, image and interview from the artists I listen to, to make a decision on their political views. I just like the music. Open a public playlist and listen.
None of the music I listen to appears to be sold on Midgard. But does that mean they’re not fascist?
Probably no need to worry. I like folk and especially nordic folk music (as in Wardruna, not Bob Dylan), which is very obviously something a neo-nazi would also probably like, if only for the superficial themes at play. I used to feel a bit afraid I might accidentally like and support someone I wouldn’t want to, but I’ve come to learn that these shops like midgard, they don’t have those kinds of “normal” releases usually, since they as a shop are often also banned on distributors’ side, so they couldn’t even get them if they wanted. At least eventually that’d kick in, as people report the shop to the bands or labels.
The music and merch these shops sell are… very obviously neo-nazi. I recommend you take a look at the shop just to get an idea, though obviously a content warning is necessary here.
This is all to say that unless the music you listen to is very obviously racist or neo-nazi or otherwise explicitly problematic, I wouldn’t worry.
Of course I might myself be wrong here, but I’ve tried to keep up and stay up to date as to which bands I like could be or turn out problematic.
None have so far, at least as far as I’m aware.
They’d have to be very explicit. I think you’d know for sure, if that was the case.
I listen to a lot of music like wardruna, I simply love the mysticism and the atmosphere of history, magic and rawness, but all of the ones I listen to are actively and publicly denouncing their music being used or approbiated by neo-nazis or other far-right movements or groups.
I think a lot of people would make a lot of noise, if one of the more popular ones would refuse to publicly denounce that. Or otherwise dodged these questions. Some, like Wardruna, are very actively and explicitly fighting those forces and are in a sense “reclaiming” some of the themes and fascinations that nazis and neo-nazis used to have, especially in norse mythology and history and their themes.
I am no longer anxious about being associated with wrong music. I think it’ll be very obvious if a band or a brand otherwise, takes a dodgy stance or especially very explicitly supports those dangerous ideals.
Which is to say, I wouldn’t worry, unless the lyrics, branding and themes are very explicit in their meaning.
Douglas P of Death in June (who I meant to reference in my original post) sells (sold?) Algiz Rune pins, and stickers of Totenkophs on rainbow backgrounds (but, he’s openly homosexual) as band merch.
Sol Invictus was formed by Tony Wakefield, who got kicked out of Death in June for being too right wing; and then he subsequently went on to create Above the Ruins for the National Front (interestingly, used to be banned but is back on Spotify), (but now regrets it).
Von Thronsthal use a logo very close to the Schwarze Sonne, and self-published under “Fasci-Nation Recordings”.
You don’t need to be a fascist to make excuses for fascists, but it’s bizarre that you read my comment about all the apologists the decided “he just hasn’t heard my brilliant apologise yet”.
You can drop the “it could happen to you” act because it almost certainly won’t. For this site and those albums, “I just didn’t have time to unpick what the lyric ‘until every removed is dead’ meant” isn’t even a remotely plausible excuse.
No. There’s no plausible deniability here. These bands’ whole gimmick is that they’re Nazis. It’s not some catchy tune you randomly heard on the radio. There is nothing subtle about it. It’s racist songs with racist lyrics. You would have to seek it out to listen to this garbage.
Also, can we appreciate how desperate and nonsensical that entire argument was?
Okay, lots of them are Japanese. So… what about the ones that aren’t? Why isn’t that person concerned about the one who absolutely understand what it means?
And secondly… it’s still a huge red flag that Japanese customers were going so far out of their way to buy extremely obscure music from racist bands from an overtly Nazi music seller. If an American specifically imported music from a Japanese shop only racists know or care about, covered in Axis power imagery, that’d still point towards being a huge racist.
That user is seriously turning themselves in knots to defend people who buy Nazi music from the Nazi store.
In a country of 124m people that has every subculture you could imagine, I can absolutely guarantee you that there are Japanese nazis. (They were a part of the axis after all.)
Being smart is not a pre-requisite to being a nazi. It’s actually a hindrance.
This might surprise you, but Japan has very close ties with fascism. Ever seen the Japanese flag with the rays coming from the center red sun? That’s the flag of Imperial Japan, a fascist terror that scarred much of Asia. Japan refuses to denounce their war crimes, and there are an unfortunate number of reactionary fascists who use the flag of Imperial Japan as a symbol they support.
I’m absolutely not saying that every Japanese person is a fascist, not even close. I am, however, saying that I’m fairly confident that these particular Japanese fans are aware of the Nazi ideology of the bands they listen to, and listen precisely because of that.
You are defending the indefensible, would you give the benefit of the doubt to a p*do ring too? They are fucking Nazis, have been open about this for three decades they sell Nazi paraphernalia, they host Nazism bands. You accidentally listening to Celine Dion once doesn’t compare.
People are indeed becoming unhinged with all this misplaced tolerance: fascists need to be dealt with straight away, we have so many examples in history about what happens when you hive them the benefit of the doubt. I can’t believe this site’s been up since the 90s.
I’ve listened to songs with suicidal lyrics, I’m not suicidal
A song with “suicidal lyrics” is not even remotely comparable to the albums this site sells, which is why they don’t need a dedicated pro-suicide website to sell them on.
Would you rush to defend an album put out by ISIS, that pushed the agenda of ISIS, with all profits going to ISIS?
It’s getting exhausting seeing people become increasingly unhinged and justifying it because “well, they’re baddies.”
Then maybe you should explain your exhaustion to the group responsible for their overwhelming majority of mass shootings, who openly celebrate the killing of black and LGBT+ people, rather than someone you’ve decided isn’t appropriately sad that neo-nazis got exposed for doing a thing they did.
I certainly wouldn’t listen to Neo-Nazi music no matter how nice the tunes are, because I personally couldn’t stand supporting literal fucking Nazis and listening to Nazi bullshit.
It’s not like the Nazis are the only ones making music, there are countless good, leftist bands out there. There aren’t slim pickings, there are oceans of good music out there.
Benefit of the doubt is a huge deal. It’s entirely possible to enjoy music and have NO idea of the message, themes, content, etc. source: Pumped Up Kicks.
Edit to add: Iced Earth. Really fun power metal band. Loved a ton of their stuff, and then found out the bands lead was arrested at the jan. 6 riot. That stuff doesn’t really bleed into their music, and I was avoiding them for a while because of it, but at the end of the day, the music is good, and that’s why we listen to music.
Pumped Up Kicks is explicit satire, not an actual call for school shootings.
Let me ask this: what makes more sense, a random, specifically Japanese group of people, enjoys northern European Neo-Nazi music for the tunes? Or, perhaps, the fact that Japan has legitimate fascist movements, and historical ties to fascism without heavily denouncing them like Germany, means fascists are likely to search out more fascist music?
I understand your point, but it’s incredibly hard to just randomly stumble upon fascist music and enjoy it for the vibes. This is a specific level of dedication in a country with higher than normal levels of support for fascism.
Nazis deserve no rights.
So, you advocate against human rights? Denying rights and dehumanizing according to people’s ideas is pretty nazi.
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The paradox of tolerance is about absolute/unlimited tolerance. One can set limits on tolerance and respect the human rights of the intolerant, it’s not mutually exclusive.
Btw, the combination of “X people don’t deserve human rights” and “those who don’t support taking rights away from X are equal to X” is especially atrocious.
I don’t believe that extends to denying them their basic human rights, though.
That depends on how much of the social contract a group is willing to break.
We benefit from knowing just how far nazis are willing to go to further their beliefs. And their efforts should be resisted in kind.
If people break the law, we restrict their freedom. Many seem to oppose that idea nowadays, or at least claim to. There’s a certain irony in that. But yes, if an individual breaks the social contract in a manner deemed “against the law”, then certain rights are removed from them.
There’s no paradox if you look at it as a social contract. If you don’t uphold your part of the contract (tolerating others) then you aren’t entitled to benefits from the contract (being tolerated by others).
The tolerance paradox is bullshit. Source: Daryl Davis, the black dude who converted a ton (like over 80) KKK members by just being a tolerant human to them.
You have to tolerate the person, not the message. You can say “you’re a valid human being” and “the stuff that comes out of your mouth is actually terrible” at the same time. Doing anything else pushes all of those valid humans with bad ideas together and makes a big echo chamber.
He didn’t say we should just say gas them to death (like they’d do to some of us in a heartbeat), he just pointed out they deserve no right to be aggressive against minorities.
I see no issue there. If they want to be decent citizens there’s an easy solution to that; stop being a nazi.
Edit: I otherwise agree with your comment, as they probably need some deprogramming to actually achieve said solution.
“they’d do that to us in a heartbeat” is both wrong (not every person who entertains these ideas actually wants to kill anyone) and also not even a good point. If you want to improve the world noticeably, you have to be BETTER THAN not the same as. Go talk to a nazi, actually understand what they think and feel, and figure out where that disconnect is.
So you’re saying for example a woman gets brought up in an environment where she’s raised as a nazi you think that it’d be acceptable for someone to rape and beat her?
I don’t really think you do, I’m not going to bother listing other examples but you get the point - what you’re saying is not only absurd but it’s clearly not what you actually believe.
All people are people, it’s that simple and there’s no more to it.
No, I was saying Nazis have a history of death and destruction, while people leaning towards democracy tend to be a little more gentle with their fellow man.
Nobody deserves to be beaten or raped and I certainly didn’t imply that.
You literally said they should have no rights, I get that you hadn’t thought about what you were saying but I really think it’s important to think about the implications of things we say.
I’d link that clip everyone always uses about the law Vs satan but it’s overused, surfice to sau dehumanising humans isn’t a thing good people do - and yes I know it’s popular to at the moment but when I was a kid everyone thought calling things gay as an insult was a great thing and we as a society grew from that so we can grow from this.
I obviously meant they shouldn’t have any rights to practice their nazism or do harmful things to whomever they dislike so much, not that they shouldn’t have any human rights.
I feel like this should’ve been fairly obvious given the context of the conversation. Human rights should always be the first concern no matter who it concerns. Do you think nazis feel the same way?
The first sentence you posted is exactly the thread that line of thought leads down. Disenfranchised people need to be talked to, met with empathy from the people they’ve been told are The Other. That’s the only way to destigmatize the two from each other.
Ohhh yeah. I see where you’re confused.
Nazis aren’t people.
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Music is an extremely important part of my life but there isn’t a single band that would make me give money to neo-nazis.
I don’t know why everyone is so eager to absolve them. If they have something to say in their defense, they can say it themselves.
Based and NAZI PUNKS FUCK OFF-pilled
We just watched that movie the other day. I support his message, but man, dude’s gotta pick his battles lol.
Movie? It’s a classic hardcore punk song title.
Fucking nazi’s taking Dead Kennedys satires as straight-faced and messing up the concert scene so they wrote this little song which left very little space for misunderstanding (even for nazi idiots).
I’m gonna guess he’s talking about Green Room, which is a very good movie.
But I was definitely quoting the Dead Kennedys lawl
Likely. Awesome movie. I remember calling it before they started playing.
Hahaha hell yeah. I think it’s time for a rewatch.
I like folk music and industrial music. The overlap of the two seems to also have a disproportionate overlap of … what’s the best way to put it?… fascist-adjacent music. Imagery, themes, etc.
Am I a fascist? No.
Are the artists fascist? I don’t know,
Boyd RiceDouglas P/Death In June sure has had some controversies about him, but he’s not been banned from streaming services. But In some ways I don’t care, I don’t have the time to unpick every lyric, image and interview from the artists I listen to, to make a decision on their political views. I just like the music. Open a public playlist and listen.None of the music I listen to appears to be sold on Midgard. But does that mean they’re not fascist?
Probably no need to worry. I like folk and especially nordic folk music (as in Wardruna, not Bob Dylan), which is very obviously something a neo-nazi would also probably like, if only for the superficial themes at play. I used to feel a bit afraid I might accidentally like and support someone I wouldn’t want to, but I’ve come to learn that these shops like midgard, they don’t have those kinds of “normal” releases usually, since they as a shop are often also banned on distributors’ side, so they couldn’t even get them if they wanted. At least eventually that’d kick in, as people report the shop to the bands or labels.
The music and merch these shops sell are… very obviously neo-nazi. I recommend you take a look at the shop just to get an idea, though obviously a content warning is necessary here.
This is all to say that unless the music you listen to is very obviously racist or neo-nazi or otherwise explicitly problematic, I wouldn’t worry.
Of course I might myself be wrong here, but I’ve tried to keep up and stay up to date as to which bands I like could be or turn out problematic.
None have so far, at least as far as I’m aware.
They’d have to be very explicit. I think you’d know for sure, if that was the case.
I listen to a lot of music like wardruna, I simply love the mysticism and the atmosphere of history, magic and rawness, but all of the ones I listen to are actively and publicly denouncing their music being used or approbiated by neo-nazis or other far-right movements or groups.
I think a lot of people would make a lot of noise, if one of the more popular ones would refuse to publicly denounce that. Or otherwise dodged these questions. Some, like Wardruna, are very actively and explicitly fighting those forces and are in a sense “reclaiming” some of the themes and fascinations that nazis and neo-nazis used to have, especially in norse mythology and history and their themes.
I am no longer anxious about being associated with wrong music. I think it’ll be very obvious if a band or a brand otherwise, takes a dodgy stance or especially very explicitly supports those dangerous ideals.
Which is to say, I wouldn’t worry, unless the lyrics, branding and themes are very explicit in their meaning.
It’s not entirely clear cut.
Douglas P of Death in June (who I meant to reference in my original post) sells (sold?) Algiz Rune pins, and stickers of Totenkophs on rainbow backgrounds (but, he’s openly homosexual) as band merch.
Sol Invictus was formed by Tony Wakefield, who got kicked out of Death in June for being too right wing; and then he subsequently went on to create Above the Ruins for the National Front (interestingly, used to be banned but is back on Spotify), (but now regrets it).
Von Thronsthal use a logo very close to the Schwarze Sonne, and self-published under “Fasci-Nation Recordings”.
Both are on Spotify with no problems.
You don’t need to be a fascist to make excuses for fascists, but it’s bizarre that you read my comment about all the apologists the decided “he just hasn’t heard my brilliant apologise yet”.
You can drop the “it could happen to you” act because it almost certainly won’t. For this site and those albums, “I just didn’t have time to unpick what the lyric ‘until every removed is dead’ meant” isn’t even a remotely plausible excuse.
Stop defending them.
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No. There’s no plausible deniability here. These bands’ whole gimmick is that they’re Nazis. It’s not some catchy tune you randomly heard on the radio. There is nothing subtle about it. It’s racist songs with racist lyrics. You would have to seek it out to listen to this garbage.
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Well I don’t live in Japan so I’m not worried about that. Also, tons of Japanese people speak English.
Also, can we appreciate how desperate and nonsensical that entire argument was?
Okay, lots of them are Japanese. So… what about the ones that aren’t? Why isn’t that person concerned about the one who absolutely understand what it means?
And secondly… it’s still a huge red flag that Japanese customers were going so far out of their way to buy extremely obscure music from racist bands from an overtly Nazi music seller. If an American specifically imported music from a Japanese shop only racists know or care about, covered in Axis power imagery, that’d still point towards being a huge racist.
That user is seriously turning themselves in knots to defend people who buy Nazi music from the Nazi store.
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In a country of 124m people that has every subculture you could imagine, I can absolutely guarantee you that there are Japanese nazis. (They were a part of the axis after all.)
Being smart is not a pre-requisite to being a nazi. It’s actually a hindrance.
You’d reckon wrong.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_chic#Asia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neo-Nazism#Japan
https://www.dw.com/en/nazi-themed-party-in-japan-draws-condemnation/a-54718274
This might surprise you, but Japan has very close ties with fascism. Ever seen the Japanese flag with the rays coming from the center red sun? That’s the flag of Imperial Japan, a fascist terror that scarred much of Asia. Japan refuses to denounce their war crimes, and there are an unfortunate number of reactionary fascists who use the flag of Imperial Japan as a symbol they support.
I’m absolutely not saying that every Japanese person is a fascist, not even close. I am, however, saying that I’m fairly confident that these particular Japanese fans are aware of the Nazi ideology of the bands they listen to, and listen precisely because of that.
You are defending the indefensible, would you give the benefit of the doubt to a p*do ring too? They are fucking Nazis, have been open about this for three decades they sell Nazi paraphernalia, they host Nazism bands. You accidentally listening to Celine Dion once doesn’t compare.
People are indeed becoming unhinged with all this misplaced tolerance: fascists need to be dealt with straight away, we have so many examples in history about what happens when you hive them the benefit of the doubt. I can’t believe this site’s been up since the 90s.
A song with “suicidal lyrics” is not even remotely comparable to the albums this site sells, which is why they don’t need a dedicated pro-suicide website to sell them on.
Would you rush to defend an album put out by ISIS, that pushed the agenda of ISIS, with all profits going to ISIS?
Then maybe you should explain your exhaustion to the group responsible for their overwhelming majority of mass shootings, who openly celebrate the killing of black and LGBT+ people, rather than someone you’ve decided isn’t appropriately sad that neo-nazis got exposed for doing a thing they did.
Liberals on their way to defend literal nazis.
I certainly wouldn’t listen to Neo-Nazi music no matter how nice the tunes are, because I personally couldn’t stand supporting literal fucking Nazis and listening to Nazi bullshit.
It’s not like the Nazis are the only ones making music, there are countless good, leftist bands out there. There aren’t slim pickings, there are oceans of good music out there.
Benefit of the doubt is a huge deal. It’s entirely possible to enjoy music and have NO idea of the message, themes, content, etc. source: Pumped Up Kicks.
Edit to add: Iced Earth. Really fun power metal band. Loved a ton of their stuff, and then found out the bands lead was arrested at the jan. 6 riot. That stuff doesn’t really bleed into their music, and I was avoiding them for a while because of it, but at the end of the day, the music is good, and that’s why we listen to music.
Pumped Up Kicks is explicit satire, not an actual call for school shootings.
Let me ask this: what makes more sense, a random, specifically Japanese group of people, enjoys northern European Neo-Nazi music for the tunes? Or, perhaps, the fact that Japan has legitimate fascist movements, and historical ties to fascism without heavily denouncing them like Germany, means fascists are likely to search out more fascist music?
I understand your point, but it’s incredibly hard to just randomly stumble upon fascist music and enjoy it for the vibes. This is a specific level of dedication in a country with higher than normal levels of support for fascism.