Why does the article call the people held by Israel “prisoners”, but the people held by Palestine “hostages”?
I mean, having a hostage generally implies your intent is to hold that person captive in exchange for a demand being fulfilled, after which point you at least claim that you will release them. Presumably, Israel doesnt intend or claim that it will release those it has imprisoned even if it gets what it wants, so calling them hostages wouldnt really be accurate. One could call the people held by Hamas prisoners too I suppose, since that just implies them to be held against their will, but as they are explicitly being held in order to be used as a bargaining chip, calling them hostages adds more information about the situation than just calling them prisoners too would.
You make sense, and I sort of agree so I won’t downvote and just add my bit. The “prisoners” are definitely being used as negotiation leverage in every discussion with Hamas.
I know this goes against the grain of what is being portrayed but a prisoner is also someone who has done something wrong where a hostage is totally innocent
In that case, given that many of the people kept by Israel have never seen the inside of a courtroom, that would be a biased use of “prisoner.”
I agree there would be more innocent people than average in those prisons. I’m not under any illusion there aren’t some really awful people in there too.
There definitely are, but that doesn’t mean Israel is justified in locking them away without due process.
Israel calls the system it uses to imprison people without trial or even charges “administrative detention”. It’s hostage taking under a sanitized name and in terms of #'s Israel is provably many times worse than already-terrible Hamas.
“Before October 7, the number of Palestinians held by Israel under administrative detention was already at a 20-year high. According to the Israeli human rights organization B’Tselem, there were 1,310 Palestinians imprisoned without charge or trial at the end of September, including at least 146 minors. Since then, Israel has dramatically increased its use of administrative detention, pushing the number of detainees to over 2,000 within the first four weeks of the war. (That’s out of a total of roughly 7,000 Palestinian prisoners.)”
People are often imprisoned for no other reason than Israelis don’t like them. Sometimes it’s social media posts. The average length of detention without trial or charge is a year. So if an Israeli soldier doesn’t like you being free, you can lose a year of your life being abused in prison for no other reason. There is an appeals process, but a report showed appeals failed 98.8% of the time from 2015-17 and there were no successes at all in 2023. "The overall figure is outrageous,” Montell said. “This is a patently illegal practice. These people should be given a fair trial or released.”
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- Palestinians are often “arrested” on dubious grounds and held without trial
- They are given no legal representation and often tortured
- Not much to add here, except that proper medical treatment is one hell of a lot harder in a place that’s actively being bombed
- There’s no attempt at habilitation being made towards Palestinian prisoners. They’re not even given a due process.
another source about the torture
So, how are they not hostages?
Israel forcibly dragged Palestinians out of their homes and took them to unknown locations. Arrested versus abducted is a distinction without a difference.
Israel isn’t rehabilitating anyone in West Bank or Gaza, they are keeping them in cramped rooms with no access to lawyers or families and are held months without charges.
Your comment just doesn’t reflect reality. Ben-Gvir invited reporters to see prisoners and bragged that he’s intentionally starving them in captivity as revenge for hostages.
Point 1 l: that is just semantics so not really relevant. Hamas could have easily said that they arrested the Israeli hostages for a crime and it wouldn’t have changed anything.
Point 2: I’m not sure that the Palestinians held without charge have any functional rights.
Point 3: That’s just an assumption on both sides of this conflict. Hamas do have access to medical professionals and it is in their best interest to keep the hostages alive. Obviously, Israel does also have access to medical professionals but I’m not sure that the Palestinians have free access to them either. I’d hope that Israel would give medical attention when it’s needed but I don’t know.
Point 4: That’s just rubbish as a general definition of prisoner around the world and the Palestinian prisoners are definitely being used in the negotiations.
Depicting Oct. 7th as an arrest?
Yikes. You really hate Jews.
Is that any different than depicting the slaughter that’s occurred since then, with a body count over 10x higher, as ‘Israel arresting Palestinians?’
Was somebody classifying this war as nothing but arrests, or is that a mischaracterization? Be honest with me now.
The only person being dishonest here is you. The slaughtering of 1000 civilians at a music festival was abhorrent, and the slaughtering of 30,000 more civilians in response is 30x as abhorrent. Calling the capture and torture of individuals as “arrests” makes you no better than Cheney and Bush with their “enhanced interrogation” bullshit.
I get you are passionate but do you think there is a chance you should check to make sure you are responding to the correct people?
The Israeli prisoners were detained and arrested.
The Israelis held by Hamas have been given many more rights than the average Palestinian prisoner.
This is an outright lie, Palestinians are being amputated because of zipties to their limbs
Again, Israel has no interest in “rehabilitating” its hostages, whereas Hamas is specifically offering to release theirs.
At worst this is hostages on both sides. Your assessment only proves how much more hospitable Hamas have been to its captives than Israel, even at a time of war and famine brought on by Israel’s onslaught.
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Go Google the NSFL photos of Israel running over prisoners and turning them into a smear of red and gore? So hospitable.
What lame whataboutism. Hasbara need to start training yall harder lmao
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Abduction and arrest are identical. An arrest is abduction by the state renamed to honor their monopoly of violence.
Prisoners and hostages have as much rights as the holding entity says they do.
This is you just guessing on how Hamas handles their prisoners. Also isn’t necessarily the same. I can tell you as a former Texas department of criminal justice officer that denying inmates medical checkups is common. Both officially and unofficially. There’s an inmate in solitary who hasn’t had a checkup hes been asking for for a year because no one who interacts with him bothers to actually do it. Go fuck yourself with that one
Loooooooool that’s fucking hilarious. Go to prison and experience your rehabilitation removed
To paint one side as legitimate and the other as not
You have got to be kidding me with this nonsense.
So what would you call it when people are violently taken form there home by an occupying force, are not charged with or convicted for any crime by a court of law and are not granted access to any legal representation?
Because that is what Israeli “Imprisonment” of Palestinians in the Westbank looks like. Oh and of course the women and children are raped and people are tortured.
https://www.omct.org/en/resources/urgent-interventions/israel-inhuman-and-degrading-treatment-including-sexual-harassment-of-palestinian-women-and-girls-detained-in-neve-tertze-womens-prison-ramle
https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2024/02/israelopt-un-experts-appalled-reported-human-rights-violations-against
https://www.phr.org.il/en/sexual-gender-based-violence-2024/?pr=17797Yes Hamas encourages their supporters to make up all sorts of sortid “reports.”
Oh my GOD! Do you have any evidence for that? That’s wild and completely unacceptable, I would love an unbiased source supporting it.
“We… reaffirm our adherence to our demands and the national demands of our people; with a permanent ceasefire, the withdrawal of the occupation army from the entire Gaza Strip, the return of the displaced to their areas and places of residence, intensification of the entry of relief and aid, and the start of reconstruction,” the Islamist faction said.
Not a single one of those seems unreasonable in the slightest and I can’t see why any of them should be withdrawn.
Because if they were serious about negotiating they would give on some points, the same goes for the Israeli government. Tbh to me it seems like neither Hamas nor the Israeli government has any interest in a ceasefire or pause or whatever you want to call it. This ongoing conflict serves their individual power agendas well.
What should they give?
Maybe they can accept a temporary ceasefire so Israel can continue later in the year?
Maybe they can let Israel stay in their land to continue to murder them?
Maybe they can let their people remain displaced and not allowed into their land?
Maybe they can let aid continue to be stifled so they starve?
Maybe they can postpone reconstruction and live in ruble to die of disease?
What should they give?
I don’t know, I’m not a political or diplomatic expert. But they took a bunch of hostages, made demands that they know will never be met by the Israeli government and won’t move away from them. On the other hand the Israeli government has been shitting on them for years, invaded their territory, makes impossible demands, and won’t move away from them either. Neither of them is right. But from the outside it doesn’t look like either party is really interested in a ceasefire.
Note my comment is not about which party is morally right. An issue I, by the way, don’t really feel equipped to give a definite answer to either. But suffice to say I don’t sympathise with the murder of civilians neither by the IDF nor by Hamas.
Neither is right? Your the kinda person who’d look at the Warsaw uprising and say they shouldn’t of resorted to violence.
Ah right, the “how about we compromise and just have a little genocide” option
Which of those points should they have given up?
You’re right, and the French should’ve just let Germany have the northern half of their country, compromise guys!
They gave on some points back in November, and Israel broke the ceasefire and killed unarmed Palestinians. They don’t trust Israel to uphold their end once again.
Handing them a surrender please note and calling it a cease fire. Their demands are reasonable. Israel and the US’s demands are capitulation.
Here. I break into your house. Steal your shit and hold your wife at gunpoint and then tell you to accept things as they are, your stuff is mine and I continue holding your wife at gunpoint but promise not to pull the trigger. Do you agree to my ceasefire? Course you fucking dont.
But your not the one getting shot at so you can sit in your fucking chair and rip some liberal bullshit about ceasefire. They are using language to fuck with you and you don’t have a moral backing to tell the difference. Just words.
Israel didn’t offer a ceasefire. They offered a pause.
A pause in a war is called what exactly?
Oh, ceasefire. Huh.
There’s a specific definition here though
A pause indicates a temporary stop to advancing with no obligation to stop shooting
While a ceasefire is they stop shooting.
If Israel broke a ceasefire it could be seen as worse than essentially unpausing the conflict.
It’s all wording, semantics and ultimately drivel but that’s politics and diplomacy.
Reuters still pushing Zionist propaganda 6 months in. Sad to see.
We all know israel is the only party rejecting an actual permanent ceasefire.
Agreed. Israel is going to the meetings but their proposals amount to “give us back the Israeli hostages, we’ll give you a few hundred of the thousands of Palestinians we’re imprisoning, and then we’ll go back to killing you mmkay?” Even their ceasefire proposals are a) temporary and b) don’t stop the terrible conditions of apartheid/hostile occupation the Palestinians were living in for decades before Oct. 7th.
Netanyahu has made it clear he will keep on killing Palestinians until Hamas is eliminated aka for as long as it serves his purposes. Don’t forget Netanyahu’s administrations are the whole reason Hamas was put in and kept power in the first place.
Wars generally end when one side surrenders.
Neither Israel nor Hamas wants to surrender, so there is no reason to expect a “permanent ceasefire”.
A lot of wars have ended in a stalemate.
And if Israel is just stopping the onslaught in Gaza it is not a surrender. They wouldn’t have given up anything.
Wars end in stalemate when both sides agree that they cannot make further military advances. That’s not the case here.
There have been multiple previous wars between Hamas and israel, and other parties like Lebanon, and it usually ends in a ceasefire.
Israel saying they want keep committing Genocide after a 6 week break and then occupy Gaza isn’t exactly a great deal.
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Feels like israel slightly forgot why it always ended that way. Only lost them all international support and the rightful designation as the new Nazis. Has israel defeated Hamas yet?
Unfortunately to them
This is a lie, Israel doesn’t commit genocide.
The IDF mission is to release hostages and take down Hamas.
There is a pretty clear UN report proving israel is committing Genocide. Did you read it?
No I didn’t, I’d kindly appreciate if you can link this UN report (preferably not from a news agency)
Sure here you go
This is an “Advance unedited version” meaning it’s not officially published by the UN, it’s only shared for review.
Additionally, Francesca Albanese drafted this document, multiple sources indicate about ther controversial and bias, as for the fact she justifies Hamas 7th Oct. massacre.
Hence, Israel is not officially commiting a genocide, and your accusations of it are wrong.
Please don’t spread lies.
There will never be permanent ceasefire because Hamas dictate that Palestine, an area in which, over 2000 years, have been living more than dozens of ethnicities (i.e. Christians, Jews, Muslims, Ancient Greeks, Ancient Romans, Turkish, British…), is religiously and exclusively belong to only Arabic Muslim Palestinians.
See my comment here: https://lemmy.one/comment/9181356
I don’t agree.
Reuters is the highest credibility international, least biased, news website that pushes news.
Zionist news are part of the news, same as the Palestinian news are part of the news.
Don’t defend Hamas. They are a pure unadulterated terrorist group who would torture you to death because you aren’t a pure Muslim.
Downvoted not because I defend Hamas (which is indeed awful) but because the premise of your post is a lazy, overused attempt to deflect criticism of Israeli crime. Where is the poster defending Hamas? Hamas isn’t even mentioned. He’s condemning Zionist propaganda and Israeli refusals to stop killing which is completely factual and an ethical stance. Take your strawman elsewhere.
Since you’re writing uneducated nonsense and I’ll just bluntly assume you’re an Israel supporter. Here’s a copy-paste of my previous comments.
Israel became an actual state in 1948 by displacing 750 000 Palestinian people and murdering many (men, women and children). Laying sieges, bombarding villages and population centers, setting fires to homes, properties and goods. Planting mines among the rubble to prevent any of the expelled people from returning (source: The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine by ilan Pappé).
Now Hamas did not exist until 1987, they became an actual group only in 1987 because of all the actions Israel had done from 1948 up until 1987. Which is approximately 39-40 years after what Israel had done to the Palestinian people.
From this we can conclude that Hamas did not start this but Israel did and that Hamas is fighting back.
Israel is currently doing:
- Stealing land
- Ethnic cleansing
- Genocide
- Calling Palestinians rats, animals and more cruel things
- Wanting to erase the entire Palestinian race
- Lying to the world
- They think they are “superior” than Palestinian people
- They think and say that Palestinian people are, the “inferior” race
- Apartheid
- Sent Palestinian people jail/ prison for no reason (even kids)
- Beat Palestinian people for no reason or provoke to “get a reason”
Who’s the actual terrorist here?
I condemn both Israel and Hamas but if Israel had not stolen the land and murdered people from 1948 up until now. They (Hamas) would not even exist today. Hamas has become so violent, hateful and such because the world is just watching and doing nothing while Palestinians are getting murdered and humiliated on a daily basis.
The earliest inhabitants in recorded history were Judaic and spoke Hebrew. Seems you’re of the mind that Israel has no right to exist. You’re describing a warzone. Maybe tell your buddies in Hamas to stop using cities as human shields, oh wait they want the highest number of civilian casualties (Martyrs™) as possible because other than taking hostages, using human shields and hiding underground is their last cowardly leverage. Even Japan surrendered and they were an actual country.
The earliest inhabitants in recorded history were Judaic and spoke Hebrew
And many of their children became Christian after Jesus and many became Muslim after Mohamed (s.a.s). The Palestinian people are ethnically the direct descendants of the Hebrew speaking Jews you are referring to. And before the European Jews, many of whom did not speak Hebrew by the way, invaded the land, Muslims, Christians and Jews were coexisting on the land of their ancestors. The people of Moses never left the land. Just that now their great great great great great… great cousins are forcing them out of the land, their branch of lineage has left hundreds and thousands of years ago.
The whole ethnic argument of zionism is a lie, that is as absurd as US Americans claiming rights to indigenous lands, because they have some 1/1024th native ethnics.
Seems you’re of the mind that Israel has no right to exist.
Israel has a right to exist but not in the way they exist now. They exist through murdering, humiliating, apartheid, stealing land and genocide. If back in the day they politely asked the Palestinian people there to live together in peace. That would be an acceptable reason and right to exist.
So no, I don’t think Israel has a right to exist on the way they made the state. Because that means, Palestinians have no right anymore to their own land that was stolen.
It is and stays Palestinian land and the Palestinians have right to it. An occupier cannot become its owner. Never.
You’re describing a warzone. Maybe tell your buddies in Hamas to stop using cities as human shields, oh wait they want the highest June of civilian casualties as possible because other than taking hostages, human shields are is their last cowardly leverage. Even Japan surrendered and they were an actual country.
Got any trustable source for your claims of “human shields” and “highest civilian casualties”?
I always find it ironic how Israel supporters claim a lot but zero evidence to back it up and make things immensely personal. It seems Israel supporters cannot discuss without being emotional.
Not only that, it is Israel who has been murdering more than 30 000 civilians and not Hamas.
Also majority of the Israeli people don’t even want the Likud party anymore and they don’t believe in this “war”. This isn’t a war, this is a genocide. A military backed by US Vs a normal group that calls themselves Hamas.
Only 15% of Israelis want Netanyahu to keep job after Gaza war, poll finds | Reuters
Yes they built 500 mi of tunnels in an area only 25 miles wide. They put them under the homes of their families and friends and hold their families and friends to stay there and keep working, keep living, don’t mind the terror tunnels under your house.
That’s called using entire cities as human shields.
Then they told people the evacuations were a hoax and instead of leaving their building after getting a phone call from the IDF saying it’s about to be bombed, people should go stand on the roof instead.
So instead of giving actual answer with trustable sources; you come back with more claims without sources.
I cannot take you serious at all.
You can continue commenting but I refuse to comment back.
EDIT: hm. I still decided to respond back.
I’m not saying anything controversial. I don’t need citations for basic uncontroverted facts.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_tunnel_warfare_in_the_Gaza_Strip
Because you aren’t Muslim and Arab.
Hamas dictate that Palestine, an area in which, over 2000 years, have been living more than dozens of ethnicities (i.e. Christians, Jews, Muslims, Ancient Greeks, Ancient Romans, Turkish, British…), is religiously and exclusively belong to only Arabic Muslim Palestinians:
Palestine is the land of the Arab Palestinian people, from it they originate, to it they adhere and belong
Palestine is a land whose status has been elevated by Islam
Palestine is an Arab Islamic land. It is a blessed sacred land that has a special place in the heart of every Arab and every Muslim.
Israel declaration of independence document, in the other hand, respect the multiethnicity of this area, and dictate that:
it will ensure complete equality of social and political rights to all its inhabitants irrespective of religion, race or sex; it will guarantee freedom of religion, conscience, language, education and culture; it will safeguard the Holy Places of all religions; and it will be faithful to the principles of the Charter of the United Nations.
Sources:
is religiously and exclusively belong to only Arabic Muslim Palestinians
As opposed to all your base, which are belong to us. SCNR
I was going to debate back, but you are all clearly drinking the Hamas Kool-Aid, so enjoy it while you can
No stop this is a pro Iranian theocratic dictatorship community! Hamas are nice people that absolutely would never literally stone people to death for saying nice things about democracy or asking for elections.
I’m tired of arguing about what horrible group is less horrible than the other…
