This sounds more like someone with a grudge against America than a fascist. “Eat shit, Americans” isn’t exactly a controversial position in most of the world, for what I hope are obvious reasons.
“I’m glad the fascists won so minorities in America can suffer” is a pretty fascist statement to make. Imagine saying “I’m glad Putin won the election, I hope liberasts and Russians suffer”
Which I could easily see coming from a Chechen so you’re kinda proving my point. Also while minorities are going to suffer more, everyone suffers under fascism except subservient rich males of the right ethnicity, so there’s plenty of suffering to go around for, say, Zionists and imperialists. They’re misguided, but this comment alone doesn’t make them a fascist.
I took it more as “these people who benefitted by all the destruction and war the US committed in their names are finally feeling the sting and might actually be driven to do something about it”.
Which I could easily see coming from a Chechen so you’re kinda proving my point.
… is your point that supporting fascism is okay if you really hate a country?
Also while minorities are going to suffer more, everyone suffers under fascism except subservient rich males of the right ethnicity, so there’s plenty of suffering to go around for, say, Zionists and imperialists.
That’s fucking insane reasoning.
They’re misguided, but this comment alone doesn’t make them a fascist.
So if, say, an American liberal said, “I’m glad Egypt is under a strongman regime so Egyptians can suffer”, you would regard that as a… non fascist statement??
… is your point that supporting fascism is okay if you really hate a country?
Supporting fascism is one thing, thinking one group of people deserves it for something they did is another. It’s a misguided version of thinking Nazis did a good job with rocket technology.
you would regard that as a… non fascist statement??
I mean, yes? I’d also hate their guts, but no there’s nothing inherently fascist about that statement. And while it’d be really weird coming from an American, I wouldn’t be able to object too hard to it coming from a Palestinian, because we do bear responsibility for not standing up to our Zionist stooges.
Supporting fascism is one thing, thinking one group of people deserves it for something they did is another.
How many steps removed is that from “Jews deserve the Holocaust because what they did” or “Palestinians deserve the Nakba and the ongoing genocide because of what they did”?
It’s a misguided version of thinking Nazis did a good job with rocket technology.
Okay, but that entire line of thinking, while ridiculous, is still predicated on the idea of a positive contribution by fascists, whereas this is explicitly negative. “I’m glad fascists won because they will hurt innocent people” is not a net gain to anyone - or at least not anyone who isn’t a fascist.
I mean, yes? I’d also hate their guts, but no there’s nothing inherently fascist about that statement.
I disagree strongly. Supporting fascist regimes for the sole purpose that it hurts innocent folk is not much more than fascism itself.
How many steps removed is that from “Jews deserve the Holocaust because what they did” or “Palestinians deserve the Nakba and the ongoing genocide because of what they did”?
The real sticking point in that line of logic is that it’s impossible for an ethnic group as a whole to have done something, and that the charges tend to be made up. Nothing is inherently fascist about the prospect of seeking justice against a large group of people.
“I’m glad fascists won because they will hurt innocent people” is not a net gain to anyone - or at least not anyone who isn’t a fascist.
I’ll be frank, you have to stretch the meaning of the word quite a bit before your average American is considered innocent. If your labor is directly or indirectly support evil that you’re supporting or not opposing, well congrats you’re an accomplice. Whether it’s productive to seek punishment and what would constitute a just punishment aside, the majority of Americans bear some amount of guilt for their government’s current and historical crimes. I mean I certainly wouldn’t think “oh it was only the government that was guilty!” when talking about Nazi Germany.
The real sticking point in that line of logic is that it’s impossible for an ethnic group as a whole to have done something, and that the charges tend to be made up. Nothing is inherently fascist about the prospect of seeking justice against a large group of people.
Against a ‘large group’, no; against a group for the purpose of group identity instead of crimes committed by the individuals therein? Uh, yes, very much so. This is not very far removed from current Israeli policy which is willing to parade around “good Arabs” while condemning the vast majority of Palestinians as implicitly guilty of attacking civilians.
I’ll be frank, you have to stretch the meaning of the word quite a bit before your average American is considered innocent. If your labor is directly or indirectly support evil that you’re supporting or not opposing, well congrats you’re an accomplice. Whether it’s productive to seek punishment and what would constitute a just punishment aside, the majority of Americans bear some amount of guilt for their government’s current and historical crimes.
Yikes. And would you say the same about Egyptians?
I mean I certainly wouldn’t think “oh it was only the government that was guilty!” when talking about Nazi Germany.
… and would that warrant, do you think, the entire German nation being punished - not simply in the abstract sense of the nation, or in the punishment of the government, but in actively inflicting suffering and punishment upon individuals for the crime of doing what most people, historically, do under horrific governments - keep their heads down and try to survive?
For that matter, would you regard that inaction as similarly damning in other cases - for example, a failure to prevent fascism? And, again, relevant to the core of this issue - would that failure then morally justify inflicting very real and serious punishment on them?
For that matter, would you say, like the OP, “I’m so glad Hitler was elected, I hope the social fascists and Germans suffer?”
Yes. A good chunk, if not most, of Egypt is guilty for allowing the military back into power. I mean heck, Sadat was assassinated and we’re letting Sisi roam free?
… and would that warrant, do you think, the entire German nation being punished
Not quite, but it would warrant those who didn’t actively resist (especially when they could) being punished. There is, however, a proportion of accomplice to resister that makes society-wide consequences start making sense.
keep their heads down and try to survive?
The majority of Germans in 1945 were also there for the Nazi takeover. Why didn’t they do something about it? Things get more nuanced when you consider people who were children at that time, but they still had a duty to do what they could to avoid contributing to the Wehrmacht. Simply put, the life of the aggressor isn’t worth any more than the life of the victim, so why should the aggressor get to prioritize one over the other?
would that failure then morally justify inflicting very real and serious punishment on them?
If they knew (or were willfully ignorant of) the consequences of their inaction, yes. Someone eho was legitimately uninformed due to no fault of their own can’t be reasonably subjected to the same standard.
For that matter, would you say, like the OP, “I’m so glad Hitler was elected, I hope the social fascists and Germans suffer?”
There was a real effort to stop the Nazi takeover of power, so (just like my position on America) I’d hope that succeeded. I’m not well-informed enough on Weimar history to make a judgement beyond that, but the active contributors and passive onlookers did deserve what they got.
I’m not agreeing with it, but to translate its more along the lines of “You Americans have spent so long being comfortable and benefitting from the imperialist project of the US and all the death and destruction it perpetrates across the world and have not offered any resistance to their own government in all this time. Liberals have been content to be complaicent in it too as long as a woman gets to drop some of those bombs, for fairness. Now you won’t be able to avoid the consequences of the evil imperialist core that all these other countries have been crushed under for over a century and may actually be driven to do something about it, since it actually affects you now.”
Which again I don’t agree with, but can also aknowledge that its more nuanced than just wishing harm for harm’s sake.
I’m Canadian and I don’t want Americans to suffer. But the US has shitty politicians in power that force me between making a choice between people in my own country eating shit or the US eating shit, and the choice is obvious.
The far left and far right are using the same tactics, just different targets for their hate politics.
Hopefully Americans see through the bullshit of the radicals (both left and right) that make them hate certain people in their own country and people in certain other countries (again, the targets vary but the tactics are the same). But it seems there’s not much anyone outside of the US can do until that happens.
… man, we’re in MeanwhileonGrad, where such luminary views are on display as “Ukronazis deserve to be murdered, critical support for Russian imperialism!”
You can say that they aren’t really leftists - and I’m not entirely inclined to disagree - but there’s a definite self-identified leftist element of legitimate insane hate that goes around.
Yes, but more often “far-left hate” is a dog whistle for anti-Zionism, because tankies just aren’t such a major political phenomenon as to warrant a mention along with the far-right. Also the person I replied to is a known Zionist, so I’m not inclined to interpret their statement charitably.
Ah so you’re keeping lists of “known zionists” now?
You’re in a political group that maintains an enemies list. You got a list of Jews and known sympathizers of Jews on your enemies list. At what point are you going to start asking “are we the baddies?”
If the facts are on your side you don’t need to keep track of those that disagree with you. You don’t need to engage in harassment campaigns. You actually want to discuss the issues with those that disagree with you because that discussion would prove you to be right.
Your group engages in harassment campaigns because you know the facts aren’t on your side.
BTW, you’re not on my enemies list, because I don’t have one. I don’t need to use the tactics you use because your own words prove you to be in the wrong.
Wow. Do you intend to burn these strawmen together with your effigy of Yitzhak Rabin or are they so you can imagine you’re shooting Palestinian children in the head?
If the facts are on your side you don’t need to keep track of those that disagree with you.
I don’t know if you’re a Zionist personally because I haven’t looked into it, but pattern recognition is absolutely a useful tool. When the same ghouls who bootlick the Holodomor come out and start spreading edge-case bullshit about other issues, knowing that they’re genocide-denying ghouls helps contextualize what they’re saying and give the appropriate amount of pushback; something that might be overkill for someone who’s just innocently ignorant.
If someone who denies the Holodomor, for example, starts talking about how they heard about far-right paramilitaries in Ukraine influencing the country, they’re much more likely to be utter ghouls playing dumb. Whereas someone who does not deny the Holodomor saying the same might be a guy who half-remembered one article on Ukraine in 2015 and simply doesn’t have up-to-date or in-depth knowledge on the subject.
Yes, and I hear a lot about how the far right Jews are influencing the West. I also hear about how the far left Jews are influencing the West. It all depends on which audience these narratives are being promoted to. I hear these narratives all the time these days.
Which of these narratives are you promoting? The far-right narrative or the far right narrative? It doesn’t matter it’s all the same. From pattern recognition (LOL) I’m going to say you’re one of the ghouls promoting these narratives to rationalize why the evil acts perpetrated on October 7 were justified.
This sounds more like someone with a grudge against America than a fascist. “Eat shit, Americans” isn’t exactly a controversial position in most of the world, for what I hope are obvious reasons.
“I’m glad the fascists won so minorities in America can suffer” is a pretty fascist statement to make. Imagine saying “I’m glad Putin won the election, I hope liberasts and Russians suffer”
Which I could easily see coming from a Chechen so you’re kinda proving my point. Also while minorities are going to suffer more, everyone suffers under fascism except subservient rich males of the right ethnicity, so there’s plenty of suffering to go around for, say, Zionists and imperialists. They’re misguided, but this comment alone doesn’t make them a fascist.
I took it more as “these people who benefitted by all the destruction and war the US committed in their names are finally feeling the sting and might actually be driven to do something about it”.
… is your point that supporting fascism is okay if you really hate a country?
That’s fucking insane reasoning.
So if, say, an American liberal said, “I’m glad Egypt is under a strongman regime so Egyptians can suffer”, you would regard that as a… non fascist statement??
Supporting fascism is one thing, thinking one group of people deserves it for something they did is another. It’s a misguided version of thinking Nazis did a good job with rocket technology.
I mean, yes? I’d also hate their guts, but no there’s nothing inherently fascist about that statement. And while it’d be really weird coming from an American, I wouldn’t be able to object too hard to it coming from a Palestinian, because we do bear responsibility for not standing up to our Zionist stooges.
How many steps removed is that from “Jews deserve the Holocaust because what they did” or “Palestinians deserve the Nakba and the ongoing genocide because of what they did”?
Okay, but that entire line of thinking, while ridiculous, is still predicated on the idea of a positive contribution by fascists, whereas this is explicitly negative. “I’m glad fascists won because they will hurt innocent people” is not a net gain to anyone - or at least not anyone who isn’t a fascist.
I disagree strongly. Supporting fascist regimes for the sole purpose that it hurts innocent folk is not much more than fascism itself.
The real sticking point in that line of logic is that it’s impossible for an ethnic group as a whole to have done something, and that the charges tend to be made up. Nothing is inherently fascist about the prospect of seeking justice against a large group of people.
I’ll be frank, you have to stretch the meaning of the word quite a bit before your average American is considered innocent. If your labor is directly or indirectly support evil that you’re supporting or not opposing, well congrats you’re an accomplice. Whether it’s productive to seek punishment and what would constitute a just punishment aside, the majority of Americans bear some amount of guilt for their government’s current and historical crimes. I mean I certainly wouldn’t think “oh it was only the government that was guilty!” when talking about Nazi Germany.
Against a ‘large group’, no; against a group for the purpose of group identity instead of crimes committed by the individuals therein? Uh, yes, very much so. This is not very far removed from current Israeli policy which is willing to parade around “good Arabs” while condemning the vast majority of Palestinians as implicitly guilty of attacking civilians.
Yikes. And would you say the same about Egyptians?
… and would that warrant, do you think, the entire German nation being punished - not simply in the abstract sense of the nation, or in the punishment of the government, but in actively inflicting suffering and punishment upon individuals for the crime of doing what most people, historically, do under horrific governments - keep their heads down and try to survive?
For that matter, would you regard that inaction as similarly damning in other cases - for example, a failure to prevent fascism? And, again, relevant to the core of this issue - would that failure then morally justify inflicting very real and serious punishment on them?
For that matter, would you say, like the OP, “I’m so glad Hitler was elected, I hope the social fascists and Germans suffer?”
Yes. A good chunk, if not most, of Egypt is guilty for allowing the military back into power. I mean heck, Sadat was assassinated and we’re letting Sisi roam free?
Not quite, but it would warrant those who didn’t actively resist (especially when they could) being punished. There is, however, a proportion of accomplice to resister that makes society-wide consequences start making sense.
The majority of Germans in 1945 were also there for the Nazi takeover. Why didn’t they do something about it? Things get more nuanced when you consider people who were children at that time, but they still had a duty to do what they could to avoid contributing to the Wehrmacht. Simply put, the life of the aggressor isn’t worth any more than the life of the victim, so why should the aggressor get to prioritize one over the other?
If they knew (or were willfully ignorant of) the consequences of their inaction, yes. Someone eho was legitimately uninformed due to no fault of their own can’t be reasonably subjected to the same standard.
There was a real effort to stop the Nazi takeover of power, so (just like my position on America) I’d hope that succeeded. I’m not well-informed enough on Weimar history to make a judgement beyond that, but the active contributors and passive onlookers did deserve what they got.
I’m not agreeing with it, but to translate its more along the lines of “You Americans have spent so long being comfortable and benefitting from the imperialist project of the US and all the death and destruction it perpetrates across the world and have not offered any resistance to their own government in all this time. Liberals have been content to be complaicent in it too as long as a woman gets to drop some of those bombs, for fairness. Now you won’t be able to avoid the consequences of the evil imperialist core that all these other countries have been crushed under for over a century and may actually be driven to do something about it, since it actually affects you now.”
Which again I don’t agree with, but can also aknowledge that its more nuanced than just wishing harm for harm’s sake.
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“I hope there is a genocide in the US” usually is a controversial position. So is killing all political opponents.
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I’m Canadian and I don’t want Americans to suffer. But the US has shitty politicians in power that force me between making a choice between people in my own country eating shit or the US eating shit, and the choice is obvious.
The far left and far right are using the same tactics, just different targets for their hate politics.
Hopefully Americans see through the bullshit of the radicals (both left and right) that make them hate certain people in their own country and people in certain other countries (again, the targets vary but the tactics are the same). But it seems there’s not much anyone outside of the US can do until that happens.
Is this far-left hate politics in the room with us right now?
… man, we’re in MeanwhileonGrad, where such luminary views are on display as “Ukronazis deserve to be murdered, critical support for Russian imperialism!”
You can say that they aren’t really leftists - and I’m not entirely inclined to disagree - but there’s a definite self-identified leftist element of legitimate insane hate that goes around.
Yes, but more often “far-left hate” is a dog whistle for anti-Zionism, because tankies just aren’t such a major political phenomenon as to warrant a mention along with the far-right. Also the person I replied to is a known Zionist, so I’m not inclined to interpret their statement charitably.
Ah, I didn’t realize they were a Zionist.
Ah so you’re keeping lists of “known zionists” now?
You’re in a political group that maintains an enemies list. You got a list of Jews and known sympathizers of Jews on your enemies list. At what point are you going to start asking “are we the baddies?”
If the facts are on your side you don’t need to keep track of those that disagree with you. You don’t need to engage in harassment campaigns. You actually want to discuss the issues with those that disagree with you because that discussion would prove you to be right.
Your group engages in harassment campaigns because you know the facts aren’t on your side.
BTW, you’re not on my enemies list, because I don’t have one. I don’t need to use the tactics you use because your own words prove you to be in the wrong.
Wow. Do you intend to burn these strawmen together with your effigy of Yitzhak Rabin or are they so you can imagine you’re shooting Palestinian children in the head?
I’m sure that sounded like something in your head, but what are you even talking about? Are you acussing me of shooting Palestinian children?
This is just a web forum, calm your tits.
I don’t know if you’re a Zionist personally because I haven’t looked into it, but pattern recognition is absolutely a useful tool. When the same ghouls who bootlick the Holodomor come out and start spreading edge-case bullshit about other issues, knowing that they’re genocide-denying ghouls helps contextualize what they’re saying and give the appropriate amount of pushback; something that might be overkill for someone who’s just innocently ignorant.
If someone who denies the Holodomor, for example, starts talking about how they heard about far-right paramilitaries in Ukraine influencing the country, they’re much more likely to be utter ghouls playing dumb. Whereas someone who does not deny the Holodomor saying the same might be a guy who half-remembered one article on Ukraine in 2015 and simply doesn’t have up-to-date or in-depth knowledge on the subject.
Yes, and I hear a lot about how the far right Jews are influencing the West. I also hear about how the far left Jews are influencing the West. It all depends on which audience these narratives are being promoted to. I hear these narratives all the time these days.
Which of these narratives are you promoting? The far-right narrative or the far right narrative? It doesn’t matter it’s all the same. From pattern recognition (LOL) I’m going to say you’re one of the ghouls promoting these narratives to rationalize why the evil acts perpetrated on October 7 were justified.
This is a webforum. I’m not in the same room as you.