In your scenarios, all of the plaintiffs are related to the accused in a similar way and would have a common incentive to make the accusation. That kind of situation naturally raises concerns about collusion or bias. By contrast, when multiple independent and unconnected individuals come forward with similar accusations, the evidentiary weight is very different. Courts recognize that corroboration from unrelated parties strengthens credibility, because it reduces the likelihood of a coordinated or self-serving motive.
For example, in United States v. Bailey, 581 F.2d 341 (3d Cir. 1978), the court noted that corroborating testimony from independent witnesses could significantly enhance credibility and probative value. Similarly, Federal Rule of Evidence 404(b) allows prior bad acts to be admitted in limited circumstances, precisely because independent, consistent reports can establish patterns that are unlikely to result from mere coincidence or collusion.
Yes, “expert witness” testimony sends people to prison all the time. If you don’t know what that is, they are state lackeys labeled experts in whatever field by the prosecuting attorney to go up and lie about why the defendant is guilty in their “expert” opinion.
A shit-load more went into that conviction than just testimony, as is exampled in your link, but if you want to split hairs using an exception to the rule as an example. I honestly don’t care.
Testimony from two friends she told in the 1990s (contemporaneous disclosure)
Testimony from other women describing similar experiences
Trump’s Access Hollywood tape statements
Trump’s deposition testimony
That’s… literally all testimony and statements. No physical evidence, no DNA, no security footage, no documents. The “shit-load more” you’re referring to IS testimony. They are different types of testimony that corroborate a pattern.
You keep saying “testimony ALONE does not convict” but then when shown cases where it does, you call them “exceptions.” How many “exceptions” do you need before acknowledging it’s an established part of our legal system?
Here’s the reality: in many sexual assault cases, especially historical ones, testimony is the primary or only evidence. That’s why courts developed extensive frameworks for evaluating credibility. Because they recognized that requiring physical evidence for crimes that typically occur in private would effectively legalize those crimes.
State v. Michaels(1984): “The victim’s testimony alone, if believed by the jury, is sufficient to sustain a conviction.”
People v. Barnes(1986): Conviction upheld based solely on victim testimony.
These aren’t “exceptions”, they’re applications of established law.
Your HOA example actually undermines your own argument. If 28 random, unconnected people from different neighborhoods, different decades, who don’t know each other, all independently accused the same HOA president of embezzlement with similar patterns… wouldn’t that be worth investigating seriously? The legal system already has mechanisms to evaluate credibility and coordination. That’s literally what discovery and cross-examination are for. That’s literally what reasonable doubt standards are for.
Aaaaaand there’s the smoking gun. He all but admitted it. And as I said, accusations help her credibility and puts focus on his culpability, but it doesn’t convict. On its own. His own words did.
Additionally I don’t know why you’re pushing so hard to be right when we’re debating something that I admitted can be a grey area. I already said there are exceptions to the rule. But you’re buying the point of my argument by forcing the exception to be the rule.
The fact of the matter is- accusations don’t convict.
Learn how law actually works and stop googling shit, but if you must: please, look up two things:
“Burden of Proof” and-
“Presumption of Innocence”.
Because in practice, using the former informs the latter.
Now I’m done with this sideshow. If you’re unwilling to come to terms on this, it’s no longer my problem if it ever was to begin with.
Not usually means yes in the right circumstances, you know, like 28 independent reports of rape against a convicted rapist who brags about taking sexual advantage of girls.
Also, yes it does all the time, they have “expert witnesses” whose job is entirely to get people convicted based solely on testimony from people who had nothing to do with the situation the people are on trial for.
At least 28 women/girls have come forward, and he has been convicted of rape and bragged about taking advantage of women, his best friend ran an industry of rape, how much more do you fucking need? Stop defending a rapist.
That’s certainly proof of character, but it’s not evidence. There’s no way you can frame this that doesn’t end in being thrown out of court without something substantial that puts him there and committing the act.
Blood samples, photographs, surveillance video, admission, etc… these things are proof.
Prior convictions won’t count as evidence. But they help with m proof of character- which can only help the prosecution, but doesn’t close a case.
Imagine if I didn’t like you and I got say, 28 people to accuse you of harassment here on lemmy. As a result, you get banned. Is that fair? Now, imagine you DID harass me and 27 other people. As a result you get banned. Is that fair?
If you’re honest, you’d answer no to the first, and yes to the second.
And that is why we don’t allow accusations to serve as proof.
Wanting something bad enough is not a legal precedent. Everyone has rights.
Are you saying that no rape victim ever received justice? Or maybe you’re willing to change your statement so that it presets in a way that says you’re pissed of that just HE is able to get away with it.
Because if it’s the latter, understand that you’re willing to change our entire legal system to prosecute anyone based on accusation alone-
No one here is in defense of rapists. Your accusations is exactly why we don’t just “believe women.” Accusations aren’t proof of guilt.
Also, there’s a thing in law that’s called “precedent”.
If you allow accusations to be accepted as legal proof of a thing, the floodgates open to allow this precedent to be applied to ALL things.
We don’t like our boss? Let’s all accuse him of rape! Boom! Prison.
We don’t like the head of our HOA? Let’s all accuse her of embezzlement! Boom! Prison!
There’s a reason proof is required. And it protects everyone. Even the bad guys.
In your scenarios, all of the plaintiffs are related to the accused in a similar way and would have a common incentive to make the accusation. That kind of situation naturally raises concerns about collusion or bias. By contrast, when multiple independent and unconnected individuals come forward with similar accusations, the evidentiary weight is very different. Courts recognize that corroboration from unrelated parties strengthens credibility, because it reduces the likelihood of a coordinated or self-serving motive.
For example, in United States v. Bailey, 581 F.2d 341 (3d Cir. 1978), the court noted that corroborating testimony from independent witnesses could significantly enhance credibility and probative value. Similarly, Federal Rule of Evidence 404(b) allows prior bad acts to be admitted in limited circumstances, precisely because independent, consistent reports can establish patterns that are unlikely to result from mere coincidence or collusion.
Thanks for bring up an example of precedence. It helps a lot.
And look at that statement:
could significantly enhance credibility.
It’s not evidence to lead to conviction.
“Great job, that definitely shows he’s a rapist, but we still can’t say he’s a rapist!” - You, that’s what you sound like.
I thought you said you were going to block me, whatever happened to that?
Can testimony alone lead to a conviction?
Yes, “expert witness” testimony sends people to prison all the time. If you don’t know what that is, they are state lackeys labeled experts in whatever field by the prosecuting attorney to go up and lie about why the defendant is guilty in their “expert” opinion.
No, not usually.
But it does happen sometimes under specific circumstances. So if it happens sometimes, there is precedent.
I encourage you to go find some sexual assault cases where nothing but testimony led to a conviction and give them a read. You might be surprised.
Here, I’ll help by offering one for you to read:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E._Jean_Carroll_v._Donald_J._Trump#%3A~%3Atext%3DIn_November_2022%2C_Carroll_filed%2Cand_his_October_2022_deposition.%3Fwprov=sfla1
A shit-load more went into that conviction than just testimony, as is exampled in your link, but if you want to split hairs using an exception to the rule as an example. I honestly don’t care.
The fact is- testimony ALONE does not convict.
The Carroll case verdict was based on:
That’s… literally all testimony and statements. No physical evidence, no DNA, no security footage, no documents. The “shit-load more” you’re referring to IS testimony. They are different types of testimony that corroborate a pattern.
You keep saying “testimony ALONE does not convict” but then when shown cases where it does, you call them “exceptions.” How many “exceptions” do you need before acknowledging it’s an established part of our legal system?
Here’s the reality: in many sexual assault cases, especially historical ones, testimony is the primary or only evidence. That’s why courts developed extensive frameworks for evaluating credibility. Because they recognized that requiring physical evidence for crimes that typically occur in private would effectively legalize those crimes.
These aren’t “exceptions”, they’re applications of established law.
Your HOA example actually undermines your own argument. If 28 random, unconnected people from different neighborhoods, different decades, who don’t know each other, all independently accused the same HOA president of embezzlement with similar patterns… wouldn’t that be worth investigating seriously? The legal system already has mechanisms to evaluate credibility and coordination. That’s literally what discovery and cross-examination are for. That’s literally what reasonable doubt standards are for.
Aaaaaand there’s the smoking gun. He all but admitted it. And as I said, accusations help her credibility and puts focus on his culpability, but it doesn’t convict. On its own. His own words did.
Additionally I don’t know why you’re pushing so hard to be right when we’re debating something that I admitted can be a grey area. I already said there are exceptions to the rule. But you’re buying the point of my argument by forcing the exception to be the rule.
The fact of the matter is- accusations don’t convict.
Learn how law actually works and stop googling shit, but if you must: please, look up two things:
Because in practice, using the former informs the latter.
Now I’m done with this sideshow. If you’re unwilling to come to terms on this, it’s no longer my problem if it ever was to begin with.
Not usually means yes in the right circumstances, you know, like 28 independent reports of rape against a convicted rapist who brags about taking sexual advantage of girls.
Also, yes it does all the time, they have “expert witnesses” whose job is entirely to get people convicted based solely on testimony from people who had nothing to do with the situation the people are on trial for.
I’ll just copy and paste this again.
At least 28 women/girls have come forward, and he has been convicted of rape and bragged about taking advantage of women, his best friend ran an industry of rape, how much more do you fucking need? Stop defending a rapist.
I’ll just copy and paste this again;
That’s certainly proof of character, but it’s not evidence. There’s no way you can frame this that doesn’t end in being thrown out of court without something substantial that puts him there and committing the act.
Blood samples, photographs, surveillance video, admission, etc… these things are proof.
Prior convictions won’t count as evidence. But they help with m proof of character- which can only help the prosecution, but doesn’t close a case.
Imagine if I didn’t like you and I got say, 28 people to accuse you of harassment here on lemmy. As a result, you get banned. Is that fair? Now, imagine you DID harass me and 27 other people. As a result you get banned. Is that fair?
If you’re honest, you’d answer no to the first, and yes to the second.
And that is why we don’t allow accusations to serve as proof.
Wanting something bad enough is not a legal precedent. Everyone has rights.
Everyone other than his victims, it would seem.
Are you saying that no rape victim ever received justice? Or maybe you’re willing to change your statement so that it presets in a way that says you’re pissed of that just HE is able to get away with it.
Because if it’s the latter, understand that you’re willing to change our entire legal system to prosecute anyone based on accusation alone-
Just to incarcerate one person.
Are you being obtuse or are you that stupid?
I’m blocking you now. You’re here to waste time.
You’re here to waste lives.
So you saying trump is not rapist? Or you saying trump is rapist but we are not sure? Are you not sure that he is rapist? Are you dumb?
You ask those questions after reading my explanation, and have the gaul to ask me if I’m dumb?
Didnt answer single question. Though gave the answer for the last one
I don’t answer stupid questions. I find it frees up a lot more of my time than I’d have ever imagined.
It’s a valid question.