I will never understand how people casually throw around communist talking points like these were not the talking points of some of the worst, most oppressive regimes ever. And the same people then are very vocally outraged when they hear fascist slogens (rightly so, but why is communist shit cool?).
I forget what the fallacy is called, but basically just because thing X is associated with Y and Y is bad doesn’t make X bad. If a communist leader killed people, it doesn’t necessarily mean communism is the reason he killed them.
In the same vain saying fascism is bad “because Hitler was a fascist” would also be a logical fallacy. Hitler also drank water but that doesn’t mean water is bad.
I’d say that all of these sucked to live in. There are definitely states that treat their citizens better than these. If something always leads to death and suffering, maybe we can conclude that it’s a bad idea. Communists are not “associated with“ communism, they are communism.
Every socialist state that has ever existed has been, contextually, far better than what came before it, and in instances where socialism dissolved, better than what replaced it, for the working classes.
This is true for all of these. What’s also important is analyzing context, life expectancy doubled in both Russia and China thanks to the lives saved by socialism. Cuba has, in many years, a higher life expectancy than the US Empire. On the whole, there may be states where quality of life is higher for the working classes, but these are exclusively imperialist states that subsidize their safety nets with the spoils of plundering the global south, and is why these same countries are surging to the far-right as imperialism is decaying.
Ahem. I wonder if non-communist states are any different, or it’s just that birth rates dipped before/during a World War, and they were all climbing back up until ~the '80s?
Sorry, the last time I was commenting from the toilet. I’ve done some looking up:
France:
Spain:
Germany:
Italy:
I mean, I know that 5 countries isn’t considered reliable statistics, I guess, but most of them are also on the rise in the given time period. Italy and a few other countries seemingly had a dip.
Ok there is too much crazy stuff there for me to take you seriously. If you’re a person and this is your genuine position, that makes me sad. People learn nothing from history.
I hold the positions I do because I learn from history. Here are some sources on what you call “crazy:”
Life expectancy from birth, Russia
Life expectancy from birth, China
Death rate and birth rate in Russia, before, during, and after socialism
Wealth inequality in Russia, before, during, and after socialism
US vs. Chinese vs. Cuban life expectancy
Unequal exchange, graphed
The truth is that socialism works remarkably well, and I only came to this position after studying socialism in theory and practice. Same with analyzing the downfall of capitalism and imperialism, and the failures of social democracy in Europe to pivot away from imperialism.
Ffs if birth rates went up in the third reich then people should be thankful for fascism and hitler?
Was west germany a poor amd depressing dictatorship and east germany a free and prosperous country, or the other way around?
Blocking.
In the case of Germany, Eastern Germany was made to pay war reparations for the incredible damages dealt to the soviet peoples, and the 27 million people they murdered. Western Germany slapped the Nazis on their wrists, and was flooded with western cash. The social safety nets in Eastern Germany were more developed and robust, while the west had more money. West Germany was indeed a dictatorship, and certainly not free and prosperous, though it had money. Eastern Germany was poor, but had much better social care, social progressivism, and more.
Go ahead, block easily verifiable facts and statistics, I’m sure that will end up helping you.
I remember the name of the fallacy for this one! It’s called “correlation, not causation”. If thing X is correlated with thing Y and we agree that thing Y is bad, that does not necessarily mean thing X is bad. If you want to attack thing X, you have to give reasons why X is bad or why X leads to Y, not just that the two are correlated. This is not to mean that correlation is useless–if Communism (X) is heavily correlated to death and suffering (Y), and we both agree that Y is bad, it is a signal that it could be useful to look into whether X causes Y and, if so, why/how.
How can you equate “seize means of production” and “class warfare” (things in OP) with 40 hour work week (not in OP)? Are Stalin’s and Maos bloody dictatorships that terrorized, tortured and murdered millions, hundreds of millions of people, examples of progress of society? I can list a bunch of countries that are relatively free, and have high rates of literacy and strong worker protections, that are not communist (pretty much any developed democracy since the late 20th century). There is literally no communist country where people are acceptably free and don’t or didn’t want to get out to flee to one of the not communist countries.
I hate the “its such a nice ideology just every single fucking time its followers came to power they had to torture and murder their fellow citizens to stay there”.
You know, “seize means of production” in practice means that the government, or people who have friends in the government, go and take away other peoples shit: farmers, small businesses, house, a pig, anything they want, and all they need to do is call the victim a bourgeois or capitalist. This is how it worked in practice in every socialist/communist country that ever existed, lmk if you have a good counter example. And guess what: people get hurt in the process, lives are ruined.
Class warfare. Who the fuck wants to live in a society where everyone is a worker? Economically, a worker means someone who doesn’t own anything other than their future ability to work and earn wages. Every society that looks remotely liveable has a strong middle class: people own real estate, business, investments. These would all be crimes in communism.
And now you can explain me that no, that’s not what’s so fucking cool about communism, I still get to keep my house and retirement fund, just have to work less and get more free stuff from the government because the only reason I wasn’t getting those things previously is that they didn’t realize how cool communism is.
btw I don’t want to read a bit about the ideology, I was born in a communist country and have a pretty good idea what it was like for people living in that system.
Edit: removed an offensive statement.
"Seizing the means of production ", means that every worker is now also an owner and investors into the company he works at. If you like owning and investing, that should sound cool to you.
Democracy should be everywhere in our lives, not only once every 4 years, that’s why democracy at the workplace is important.
The workers wouldn’t get “free stuff from the state” they would get to decide what to do with the surplus value the created with their work. Do we have a bigger payout? Do we invest in more production, more research? All these decisions would be held democratically by the workers AND managers.
Btw did you know, that you are in a class war wether you want it or not? There is one class waging war on you, one class that has class solidarity, and that is the Epstein class, the billionaire class. They steal the value you create any chance that they get. And what do they do with it? Invest it into hospitals? No. In the best case scenario they hoard it. In the worst case scenario they use it to rape and kill.
Edit: I see that you were born in a post-Soviet country. You can thank communism for your country to exist as a country and not as a colonized Nazi settlement with you and your family murdered or enslaved :)
That is a super fucked-up thing to say. Go thank Ceausescu for committing genocide in Romania (yea, not soviet, but under USSR’s influence)
By 1989 Romanians were starving. Supermarket shelves were empty. Money meant nothing.
And, hey, where were all the disabled people? Can you find one? You can’t. He put them away, like the nazis. One of the “disabilities” the regime treated in their institutions? Not being white. That’s right. Being part of an ethnic minority was considered a disability. Remind you of a certain Adolf?
https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/1044207311394853
Political opposition? Freedom of speech? None of that. My uncle can attest to that. Oh wait, he can’t. He spoke ill of the regime while in compulsory military training and they “took care” of him. But maybe my grandfather can tell you about his career as a police officer-ohnowait he got canned for not being loyal enough to the regime and had to move his family from the city to a remote village.
Healthcare? Let’s ask my aunt. Oh shit, wait, we can’t. She died at 5 of pneumonia cause there were no doctors in her village and no medication at the hospital.
How about that housing? Did you know people had wood burners in their apartments cause there was no heating?
What about the blackouts? Power went out daily for hours.
Industry? Pollution. My parents worked in a coal-burning power plant. Romania’s energy was 47% renewable last year.
Fuck you know. You know nothing. You’re just some propagandist on the internet. My parents lived through it themselves and I live in Romania today. I moved back to it from London. Cause that trend of people emigrating is reversing now thanks to investments from the EU. What you’re seeing there is Romania joining the EU. You see those last few dots there? See how flat that line is? You don’t know shit. Ceausescu’s isolationism has nothing on that.
EDIT: Oh and one more thing. Just cause the soviets fought the nazis doesn’t make them good. They didn’t do it out of the kindness of their hearts. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_occupations_by_the_Soviet_Union
You may recognize some of those territories as territories Putin is currently trying to regain. I don’t suppose you like him too.
Your arguments are so weak I didn’t even get mad. I’d call it ragebait but it’s not even that. It’s like you got high, listened to a really trashy music album and thought it was the best thing you ever heard. In fact, I resent you for wasting my time, making me type up all this stuff that other people know or don’t need to be told.
EDIT 2: This is how you know the left is better than the right. Even our extremists are higher quality. Theirs are unintelligible. At least ours write full paragraphs instead of ragebait catchphrases
If you do more research you may have one or two more revelations when it comes to Romania
The wealthy are not taking 90% in Romania. If the far-right and right keeps growing though… maybe. Same goes for the MAGA-friendly socially conservative kleptocratic social-democrat-in-name-only party we have here. There’s a new green social-democrat party that’s the real deal. It’s growing. Fingers crossed. I don’t think we need communism to keep things in check. A solid social-democrat party with a few democratic socialists here and there should do just fine. If the country goes far-right though… we’re fucked.
The thing about supermarkets being empty is real. That was literally one of the things that triggered the revolution. People tend to stay put if their basic needs are met, which is exactly what the communist regime promised to do and did not. Ceausescu sucked at socialism, basically, if you wanna put it that way. He ran the country like a business and didn’t care about the employees. He only cared about himself and his oligarch friends.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1980s_austerity_policy_in_Romania
My uncle was not a fascist. Far from it. Look at who MAGA calls terrorists and “radical far-left lunatics” these days. It was like that. If you disagreed with them, you were a “fascist”.
What my grandfather did was he refused to beat up a guy for information. He was just a regular cop in a small city. Just a guy who needed a job. He didn’t want to play a part in political oppression. That’s how he got fired.
My family didn’t leave Romania. I did. And they’ve been fine. I left for university. I did Film & TV in the UK cause I liked English-language entertainment.
As for other people being uprooted… People didn’t leave Romania in its communist years because they weren’t allowed to, not cause they liked communism. Plenty escaped. Much like North Korea today.
Also, you keep using socialism and communism like they’re synonyms. They’re not. I’m down with democratic socialism. I am not down with the clusterfuck of oppression and poverty that was the Ceausescu regime. If you feel the same, I’d kindly suggest you don’t associate with it either, cause it is a bottomless can of worms. The more you read, the more shocking it gets. And that goes for plenty other figures of the 20th century. This new generation of progressive democratic socialists is a completely different and much better thing.
There is literally no communist country where people are acceptably free and don’t or didn’t want to get out to flee to one of the not communist countries
Lmao. Clearly not looking very hard. The CPC even by western sources has an approval rate somewhere between 85 and 98%.
Every socialist state that has ever existed has been, contextually, far better than what came before it, and in instances where socialism dissolved, better than what replaced it, for the working classes. Communism is becoming more popular as time goes on, because capitalism continues to decay and make people more and more hopeless:
When the working classes see no future for themselves in capitalism, why wouldn’t people want to implement a system where people, rather than capital, are in control?
I will never understand how people casually throw around communist talking points like these were not the talking points of some of the worst, most oppressive regimes ever. And the same people then are very vocally outraged when they hear fascist slogens (rightly so, but why is communist shit cool?).
I forget what the fallacy is called, but basically just because thing X is associated with Y and Y is bad doesn’t make X bad. If a communist leader killed people, it doesn’t necessarily mean communism is the reason he killed them.
In the same vain saying fascism is bad “because Hitler was a fascist” would also be a logical fallacy. Hitler also drank water but that doesn’t mean water is bad.
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That’s not a very good example, because good and bad people drink water, pretty much everyone does. Here is a list of communist states:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_socialist_states_(communism)
I’d say that all of these sucked to live in. There are definitely states that treat their citizens better than these. If something always leads to death and suffering, maybe we can conclude that it’s a bad idea. Communists are not “associated with“ communism, they are communism.
As I said elsewhere:
This is true for all of these. What’s also important is analyzing context, life expectancy doubled in both Russia and China thanks to the lives saved by socialism. Cuba has, in many years, a higher life expectancy than the US Empire. On the whole, there may be states where quality of life is higher for the working classes, but these are exclusively imperialist states that subsidize their safety nets with the spoils of plundering the global south, and is why these same countries are surging to the far-right as imperialism is decaying.
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Lmao @ the reply to me, obliterated me
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🫠
Ahem. I wonder if non-communist states are any different, or it’s just that birth rates dipped before/during a World War, and they were all climbing back up until ~the '80s?
Non-socialist states did not have that same severe drop right as socialism was dissolved.
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Sorry, the last time I was commenting from the toilet. I’ve done some looking up:
France:
Spain:
Germany:
Italy:
I mean, I know that 5 countries isn’t considered reliable statistics, I guess, but most of them are also on the rise in the given time period. Italy and a few other countries seemingly had a dip.
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Ok there is too much crazy stuff there for me to take you seriously. If you’re a person and this is your genuine position, that makes me sad. People learn nothing from history.
I hold the positions I do because I learn from history. Here are some sources on what you call “crazy:”
Life expectancy from birth, Russia
Life expectancy from birth, China
Death rate and birth rate in Russia, before, during, and after socialism
Wealth inequality in Russia, before, during, and after socialism
US vs. Chinese vs. Cuban life expectancy
Unequal exchange, graphed
The truth is that socialism works remarkably well, and I only came to this position after studying socialism in theory and practice. Same with analyzing the downfall of capitalism and imperialism, and the failures of social democracy in Europe to pivot away from imperialism.
Ffs if birth rates went up in the third reich then people should be thankful for fascism and hitler? Was west germany a poor amd depressing dictatorship and east germany a free and prosperous country, or the other way around? Blocking.
In the case of Germany, Eastern Germany was made to pay war reparations for the incredible damages dealt to the soviet peoples, and the 27 million people they murdered. Western Germany slapped the Nazis on their wrists, and was flooded with western cash. The social safety nets in Eastern Germany were more developed and robust, while the west had more money. West Germany was indeed a dictatorship, and certainly not free and prosperous, though it had money. Eastern Germany was poor, but had much better social care, social progressivism, and more.
Go ahead, block easily verifiable facts and statistics, I’m sure that will end up helping you.
Why do you think west Germany was a dictatorship?
I remember the name of the fallacy for this one! It’s called “correlation, not causation”. If thing X is correlated with thing Y and we agree that thing Y is bad, that does not necessarily mean thing X is bad. If you want to attack thing X, you have to give reasons why X is bad or why X leads to Y, not just that the two are correlated. This is not to mean that correlation is useless–if Communism (X) is heavily correlated to death and suffering (Y), and we both agree that Y is bad, it is a signal that it could be useful to look into whether X causes Y and, if so, why/how.
How many communist countries are currently bombing the shit out of other countries today?
The russia?
Russia has not been socialist since the early 1990s.
deleted by creator
Not the original commenter, but you seem to know a bit about communism (I’m currently looking into it)
Would you be up for a discussion on communism?
deleted by creator
How can you equate “seize means of production” and “class warfare” (things in OP) with 40 hour work week (not in OP)? Are Stalin’s and Maos bloody dictatorships that terrorized, tortured and murdered millions, hundreds of millions of people, examples of progress of society? I can list a bunch of countries that are relatively free, and have high rates of literacy and strong worker protections, that are not communist (pretty much any developed democracy since the late 20th century). There is literally no communist country where people are acceptably free and don’t or didn’t want to get out to flee to one of the not communist countries. I hate the “its such a nice ideology just every single fucking time its followers came to power they had to torture and murder their fellow citizens to stay there”. You know, “seize means of production” in practice means that the government, or people who have friends in the government, go and take away other peoples shit: farmers, small businesses, house, a pig, anything they want, and all they need to do is call the victim a bourgeois or capitalist. This is how it worked in practice in every socialist/communist country that ever existed, lmk if you have a good counter example. And guess what: people get hurt in the process, lives are ruined.
Class warfare. Who the fuck wants to live in a society where everyone is a worker? Economically, a worker means someone who doesn’t own anything other than their future ability to work and earn wages. Every society that looks remotely liveable has a strong middle class: people own real estate, business, investments. These would all be crimes in communism. And now you can explain me that no, that’s not what’s so fucking cool about communism, I still get to keep my house and retirement fund, just have to work less and get more free stuff from the government because the only reason I wasn’t getting those things previously is that they didn’t realize how cool communism is. btw I don’t want to read a bit about the ideology, I was born in a communist country and have a pretty good idea what it was like for people living in that system. Edit: removed an offensive statement.
I think you got it the wrong way round.
"Seizing the means of production ", means that every worker is now also an owner and investors into the company he works at. If you like owning and investing, that should sound cool to you.
Democracy should be everywhere in our lives, not only once every 4 years, that’s why democracy at the workplace is important.
The workers wouldn’t get “free stuff from the state” they would get to decide what to do with the surplus value the created with their work. Do we have a bigger payout? Do we invest in more production, more research? All these decisions would be held democratically by the workers AND managers.
Btw did you know, that you are in a class war wether you want it or not? There is one class waging war on you, one class that has class solidarity, and that is the Epstein class, the billionaire class. They steal the value you create any chance that they get. And what do they do with it? Invest it into hospitals? No. In the best case scenario they hoard it. In the worst case scenario they use it to rape and kill.
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That is a super fucked-up thing to say. Go thank Ceausescu for committing genocide in Romania (yea, not soviet, but under USSR’s influence)
What
The
Fuck
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Romania’s GDP grew 550% from 1989 to 2026. See? I can do that do.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Romania
By 1989 Romanians were starving. Supermarket shelves were empty. Money meant nothing.
And, hey, where were all the disabled people? Can you find one? You can’t. He put them away, like the nazis. One of the “disabilities” the regime treated in their institutions? Not being white. That’s right. Being part of an ethnic minority was considered a disability. Remind you of a certain Adolf? https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/1044207311394853
Political opposition? Freedom of speech? None of that. My uncle can attest to that. Oh wait, he can’t. He spoke ill of the regime while in compulsory military training and they “took care” of him. But maybe my grandfather can tell you about his career as a police officer-ohnowait he got canned for not being loyal enough to the regime and had to move his family from the city to a remote village.
Healthcare? Let’s ask my aunt. Oh shit, wait, we can’t. She died at 5 of pneumonia cause there were no doctors in her village and no medication at the hospital.
How about that housing? Did you know people had wood burners in their apartments cause there was no heating? What about the blackouts? Power went out daily for hours.
Industry? Pollution. My parents worked in a coal-burning power plant. Romania’s energy was 47% renewable last year.
Fuck you know. You know nothing. You’re just some propagandist on the internet. My parents lived through it themselves and I live in Romania today. I moved back to it from London. Cause that trend of people emigrating is reversing now thanks to investments from the EU. What you’re seeing there is Romania joining the EU. You see those last few dots there? See how flat that line is? You don’t know shit. Ceausescu’s isolationism has nothing on that.
EDIT: Oh and one more thing. Just cause the soviets fought the nazis doesn’t make them good. They didn’t do it out of the kindness of their hearts. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_occupations_by_the_Soviet_Union You may recognize some of those territories as territories Putin is currently trying to regain. I don’t suppose you like him too.
Your arguments are so weak I didn’t even get mad. I’d call it ragebait but it’s not even that. It’s like you got high, listened to a really trashy music album and thought it was the best thing you ever heard. In fact, I resent you for wasting my time, making me type up all this stuff that other people know or don’t need to be told.
EDIT 2: This is how you know the left is better than the right. Even our extremists are higher quality. Theirs are unintelligible. At least ours write full paragraphs instead of ragebait catchphrases
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If you do more research you may have one or two more revelations when it comes to Romania
The wealthy are not taking 90% in Romania. If the far-right and right keeps growing though… maybe. Same goes for the MAGA-friendly socially conservative kleptocratic social-democrat-in-name-only party we have here. There’s a new green social-democrat party that’s the real deal. It’s growing. Fingers crossed. I don’t think we need communism to keep things in check. A solid social-democrat party with a few democratic socialists here and there should do just fine. If the country goes far-right though… we’re fucked.
The thing about supermarkets being empty is real. That was literally one of the things that triggered the revolution. People tend to stay put if their basic needs are met, which is exactly what the communist regime promised to do and did not. Ceausescu sucked at socialism, basically, if you wanna put it that way. He ran the country like a business and didn’t care about the employees. He only cared about himself and his oligarch friends. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1980s_austerity_policy_in_Romania
My uncle was not a fascist. Far from it. Look at who MAGA calls terrorists and “radical far-left lunatics” these days. It was like that. If you disagreed with them, you were a “fascist”.
What my grandfather did was he refused to beat up a guy for information. He was just a regular cop in a small city. Just a guy who needed a job. He didn’t want to play a part in political oppression. That’s how he got fired.
My family didn’t leave Romania. I did. And they’ve been fine. I left for university. I did Film & TV in the UK cause I liked English-language entertainment. As for other people being uprooted… People didn’t leave Romania in its communist years because they weren’t allowed to, not cause they liked communism. Plenty escaped. Much like North Korea today.
Also, you keep using socialism and communism like they’re synonyms. They’re not. I’m down with democratic socialism. I am not down with the clusterfuck of oppression and poverty that was the Ceausescu regime. If you feel the same, I’d kindly suggest you don’t associate with it either, cause it is a bottomless can of worms. The more you read, the more shocking it gets. And that goes for plenty other figures of the 20th century. This new generation of progressive democratic socialists is a completely different and much better thing.
(Edited a thing or two for clarity)
Lmao. Clearly not looking very hard. The CPC even by western sources has an approval rate somewhere between 85 and 98%.
Every socialist state that has ever existed has been, contextually, far better than what came before it, and in instances where socialism dissolved, better than what replaced it, for the working classes. Communism is becoming more popular as time goes on, because capitalism continues to decay and make people more and more hopeless:
When the working classes see no future for themselves in capitalism, why wouldn’t people want to implement a system where people, rather than capital, are in control?