The leftist discourse has been clear from the start. The reason the same arguments are being used is because they are still valid issues with the candidate.
I’ve been seeing liberals push this narrative a lot, that “tankies” just keep flip flopping to the next issue.
This is incredible. All I am seeing are the same issues raised over and over that liberals never address. Genuinely, do you not see that you are just being blue MAGA? How do you not see this?
The DNC is completely complicit in the US’ slide into fascism. Liberals just use the same tired debunked arguments and sneers which devolves the discourse into endless shit flinging. Leftists aren’t free of blame either, agitating is a classic pastime of many.
But to see liberals sneering and relishing in this “victory” while marching happily into literal fascism is just incredible.
Look, Kamala will probably win. I’m turning off the shit flinging mode right now and seriously saying something:
If you genuinely and truly don’t see how the path the US is on has been, and will lead, to fascism with a complicit ruling class… Jesus Christ man I don’t even know what to say.
I just don’t want the Sunny d orangutan to put me into a fucking concentration camp. If that makes me blue maga, so be it I guess.
You act like voting is mutually exclusive with all other forms of resistance. Like yeah, obviously voting alone isn’t going to do very much. But just because there’s work to be done outside of the voting booth doesn’t mean we should hand the oval office over to the actual facility on a silver platter.
Elections serve the function of capturing political energy and diverting it away from addressing any real issues. Has it escaped your notice that all candidates are completely subservient to the ruling class?
Every year the concentration of wealth grows. Every day, the USA continues to prop up a genocide. Every year true revolutionaries are quietly murdered, then memory-holed.
I’m personally not saying “don’t vote” - on balance, I think it’s worth exercising that minute degree of autonomy. What I am saying is: “Don’t expect voting to affect real change, when the rolling class has complete control over candidate selection”
So outside of instantaneously and magically destroying the existing power structure and government as it currently exists, what do you propose? How long will it take to implement, and what risks are there in doing it?
The “leftist” arguments I’ve seen so far never mention that.
The solution leftists offer is to organise the working class against its oppressors. This is a tedious process because of the lack of knowledge the average person has around this topic (otherwise you wouldn’t have had to ask this question). The working class will always have their numbers in their favour, but in order to effectively overthrow the ruling class they need to understand the class relations in place. You can contribute by reading leftist literature on class relations and educating those around you. There are leftist reading groups in basically every city especially for this reason.
To add, reading theory is not enough, just a good start. You should join an org if you have the time and resources to do so, and contribute to building dual power.
There are some good orgs to join, such as the Party for Socialism and Liberation, for those based in the US. There are also Anarchist orgs like Food Not Bombs that set up networks of Mutual Aid, though their focus is on immediate benefits to the poor and not building up dual power to replace the current system.
The solution leftists offer is to organise the working class against its oppressors.
Right, right, but - how?
I’m assuming from your spelling of organize that you’re not American? What I mean is - what is the “leftist” plan for America - how would it practically work?
So far all I see is a lot of hand-waving. Yes, yes, and then what? You must know that what you’ve written is just barely outside the realm of theory. How. Will we change our supposed “Democratic march to fascism” exactly? What happens to make that so?
Join an organization, like The Party for Socialism and Liberation. Read theory, organize, and build up dual power. You can’t just motion that Leftists aren’t doing what they claim they are and want to, read theory yourself if you want to understand.
Organising is done through education. Workers must learn exactly in what ways they’re taken advantage of by their bosses and educate others with this knowledge as well. Once enough workers have joined a revolutionary (communist) party because they agree that the oppression of their class must be stopped, they can start their revolution. Workers that work for production companies must take control of the means of the production, workers that work in government agencies must take control over their respective agency. Workers that work in the military must take control of military equipment. The party that organised the revolution already has its own democratic structure that will be used to decide the next courses of action. Once the workers are in control of their workplace they can continue the same work while the party basically takes over the role of the government as long as it’s needed. Through its democratic structure decisions can be made on the order of which the current problems the people face can be addressed.
I’m no expert, so this is a run down of the events during a revolution as I understand it. The course of a revolution varies a lot depending on the class relations so a successful revolution in one country may not look the same in another. As I said, the first step is education and I’m still learning what the class relations look like in my own region, until then I can not exactly say what the revolution here should look like.
In general it should never be a bad idea for a worker to learn about their own company structure and the contradictions that exist within between the workers and the owners and shareholders of said company. This information can first help with unionising, and from it you can derive your negotiating power as a union against your boss. This is helpful in gaining ground on the wage/profit ratio, and later it will be essential for taking control of the company and making sure it keeps running.
I would like to flip this argument on its head. If the right wing is putting up a sufficiently fascist candidate, does that mean you will broker no criticism of the less right wing candidate? They can just keep playing that trick on you forever?
Well, I consider “liberals” and “Democrats” to be pretty clear and on the record as to what changes they would make. They have position papers and - things, if one is so inclined to wonk it up.
But if self-described “progressives” and “leftists” are saying they’re so corrupt, they’re leading us down the road to being locked in an iron coffin with spikes on the inside - well, okay, what’s the “progressive”, “left” road like, then?
Here’s why: explain how your political process can flourish. It’s not like politics is a recent invention - so-called “progressives” or “leftists” must have something in mind, what is it?
What I expect is either complete silence, or something wildly unlikely. But - open to the idea: what is it, how does it work, what are the risks?
Here’s why: explain how your political process can flourish. It’s not like politics is a recent invention - so-called “progressives” or “leftists” must have something in mind, what is it?
Here is PSL’s party platform they are campaigning on, as they try to build up a Leftist political party in the US. There are leftist plans and actions we can take.
Increase taxes for the highest bracket. Close tax loopholes. Codify the right to abortion. End military and economic aid to Israel. Increase land value tax. Single payer healthcare. Extend welfare to all disabled people living overseas. Ban child labour. Universal basic income. Put a limit on the number of properties that can be owned by an individual or corporation. Dissolve HOA clauses. Loosen immigration. Increase education spending. Increase legal protection for unions. Place control of all businesses in the hands of the unions and nationalise those businesses lacking unions. Make internet free and connect every home to fiber. Ban new fossil fuel developments. Invest in the local solar and wind industries. Ban animal agriculture. Tighten up laws against online abuse and harassment. Create a new cybercrime investigation force completely unaffiliated with the police. Offer everyone a number of free therapist visits. Make weed and LSD legal.
Ah, right. I believe the original question in this thread was calling out the tankies who say both candidates are bad and the voting will not accomplish anything to say what the actual plan is, so not aimed at you.
Both candidates are bad. I’m still with Capable Kamala all the way. This is because I have the apparently rare gift among leftists of being able to do things I don’t like for a good reason.
The way this debate has been framed recently, everyone’s talking as though leftists only care about instant gratification and doing things that feel good. I have a bit more long term thinking than that.
Progressives and leftists have tons of literature out there on the policies and ideas they want implemented to improve society, just because you haven’t bother to look up any doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist.
As to how that gets implemented again it’s out there but going to depend on what country and topic we’re taking about if you want someone to provide something specific.
More than happy to provide some but given the post was on “leftist discourse” I’m a little unclear on what specific topic you’re unable to find the leftist position for here.
So…you are tacitly admitting that the “lesser of two evils” trick will always work on you?
explain how your political process can flourish
I don’t recall proposing a political process. I’ll engage with the strawman anyway. If I was president of this wretched hellscape, The bare minimum policies to start would be:
Electoral reform, labor reform, UBI, criminal justice reform, tax reform (wealth tax, inheritance tax, national property tax, tax on financial transactions), corporate death penalty, presumptive liability for corporate executives, bring the military and police to heel.
something wildly unlikely
Uhh, sure, it is going to be very difficult to change the power structures in the United States that are entrenched into every facet of life and constantly propagandized through the media. I guess we should just give up and spend all our time fellating the ruling class.
I think what the USian liberals on here are missing is perspective. I think they have a worldview where the election is all that matters, so any whiff of dissent MUST mean the “tankies” are out to make the blue team lose.
Liberals, do you really think undecided voters in swing states are making voting decisions based on political threads on Lemmy?
If you truly want to understand instead of just downvote and run, try and mentally transpose this situation onto the British empire 100+ years ago. Sure, there are elections, but the grinding bloodthirsty machine of empire proceeds apace with no regard to the election before or after. Sure, one party is worse, that’s the literal manipulative trap of first past the post.
When we look at this world, there is one nation that has been terrorizing the world for over 70 years. Unless you are very naive, you shouldn’t expect compliant national media to give a balanced portrait of this history.
We’re not going to stop talking about the bloodshed and the empire and the propaganda until it has been burned to the ground. You can join the media and intelligence services, and do everything in your power to silence us - or you could consider that perhaps our positions are principled. Perhaps we once believed just like you did, so we see how close you are to piercing the veil of deception.
Or we are all literally paid shills and you don’t have to change any of your beliefs because the United States is a beacon of freedom and justice to the whole world…
The leftist discourse has been clear from the start. The reason the same arguments are being used is because they are still valid issues with the candidate.
I’ve been seeing liberals push this narrative a lot, that “tankies” just keep flip flopping to the next issue.
This is incredible. All I am seeing are the same issues raised over and over that liberals never address. Genuinely, do you not see that you are just being blue MAGA? How do you not see this?
The DNC is completely complicit in the US’ slide into fascism. Liberals just use the same tired debunked arguments and sneers which devolves the discourse into endless shit flinging. Leftists aren’t free of blame either, agitating is a classic pastime of many.
But to see liberals sneering and relishing in this “victory” while marching happily into literal fascism is just incredible.
Look, Kamala will probably win. I’m turning off the shit flinging mode right now and seriously saying something:
If you genuinely and truly don’t see how the path the US is on has been, and will lead, to fascism with a complicit ruling class… Jesus Christ man I don’t even know what to say.
I just don’t want the Sunny d orangutan to put me into a fucking concentration camp. If that makes me blue maga, so be it I guess.
You act like voting is mutually exclusive with all other forms of resistance. Like yeah, obviously voting alone isn’t going to do very much. But just because there’s work to be done outside of the voting booth doesn’t mean we should hand the oval office over to the actual facility on a silver platter.
Elections serve the function of capturing political energy and diverting it away from addressing any real issues. Has it escaped your notice that all candidates are completely subservient to the ruling class?
Every year the concentration of wealth grows. Every day, the USA continues to prop up a genocide. Every year true revolutionaries are quietly murdered, then memory-holed.
I’m personally not saying “don’t vote” - on balance, I think it’s worth exercising that minute degree of autonomy. What I am saying is: “Don’t expect voting to affect real change, when the rolling class has complete control over candidate selection”
Voting alone obviously isn’t enough. It’s the absolute bare minimum.
I can meet you there
So outside of instantaneously and magically destroying the existing power structure and government as it currently exists, what do you propose? How long will it take to implement, and what risks are there in doing it?
The “leftist” arguments I’ve seen so far never mention that.
The solution leftists offer is to organise the working class against its oppressors. This is a tedious process because of the lack of knowledge the average person has around this topic (otherwise you wouldn’t have had to ask this question). The working class will always have their numbers in their favour, but in order to effectively overthrow the ruling class they need to understand the class relations in place. You can contribute by reading leftist literature on class relations and educating those around you. There are leftist reading groups in basically every city especially for this reason.
To add, reading theory is not enough, just a good start. You should join an org if you have the time and resources to do so, and contribute to building dual power.
Definitely. Most orgs in the West (that I know of) are at the moment focused mostly on education because it’s so lacking in our society
There are some good orgs to join, such as the Party for Socialism and Liberation, for those based in the US. There are also Anarchist orgs like Food Not Bombs that set up networks of Mutual Aid, though their focus is on immediate benefits to the poor and not building up dual power to replace the current system.
Right, right, but - how?
I’m assuming from your spelling of organize that you’re not American? What I mean is - what is the “leftist” plan for America - how would it practically work?
So far all I see is a lot of hand-waving. Yes, yes, and then what? You must know that what you’ve written is just barely outside the realm of theory. How. Will we change our supposed “Democratic march to fascism” exactly? What happens to make that so?
Join an organization, like The Party for Socialism and Liberation. Read theory, organize, and build up dual power. You can’t just motion that Leftists aren’t doing what they claim they are and want to, read theory yourself if you want to understand.
Organising is done through education. Workers must learn exactly in what ways they’re taken advantage of by their bosses and educate others with this knowledge as well. Once enough workers have joined a revolutionary (communist) party because they agree that the oppression of their class must be stopped, they can start their revolution. Workers that work for production companies must take control of the means of the production, workers that work in government agencies must take control over their respective agency. Workers that work in the military must take control of military equipment. The party that organised the revolution already has its own democratic structure that will be used to decide the next courses of action. Once the workers are in control of their workplace they can continue the same work while the party basically takes over the role of the government as long as it’s needed. Through its democratic structure decisions can be made on the order of which the current problems the people face can be addressed.
I’m no expert, so this is a run down of the events during a revolution as I understand it. The course of a revolution varies a lot depending on the class relations so a successful revolution in one country may not look the same in another. As I said, the first step is education and I’m still learning what the class relations look like in my own region, until then I can not exactly say what the revolution here should look like.
In general it should never be a bad idea for a worker to learn about their own company structure and the contradictions that exist within between the workers and the owners and shareholders of said company. This information can first help with unionising, and from it you can derive your negotiating power as a union against your boss. This is helpful in gaining ground on the wage/profit ratio, and later it will be essential for taking control of the company and making sure it keeps running.
Well, thank you for the informational rundown. So far as I can tell the “how” of a “progressive” or “leftist” political change boils down to:
Is that the right takeaway?
I think I’m going to stick with the American democratic process of voting for leaders, but it sounds interesting if a little undefined.
I recently finished a biography of Stalin and I gotta say, you sound exactly like Stalin.
I would like to flip this argument on its head. If the right wing is putting up a sufficiently fascist candidate, does that mean you will broker no criticism of the less right wing candidate? They can just keep playing that trick on you forever?
Well, I consider “liberals” and “Democrats” to be pretty clear and on the record as to what changes they would make. They have position papers and - things, if one is so inclined to wonk it up.
But if self-described “progressives” and “leftists” are saying they’re so corrupt, they’re leading us down the road to being locked in an iron coffin with spikes on the inside - well, okay, what’s the “progressive”, “left” road like, then?
Here’s why: explain how your political process can flourish. It’s not like politics is a recent invention - so-called “progressives” or “leftists” must have something in mind, what is it?
What I expect is either complete silence, or something wildly unlikely. But - open to the idea: what is it, how does it work, what are the risks?
Here is PSL’s party platform they are campaigning on, as they try to build up a Leftist political party in the US. There are leftist plans and actions we can take.
Increase taxes for the highest bracket. Close tax loopholes. Codify the right to abortion. End military and economic aid to Israel. Increase land value tax. Single payer healthcare. Extend welfare to all disabled people living overseas. Ban child labour. Universal basic income. Put a limit on the number of properties that can be owned by an individual or corporation. Dissolve HOA clauses. Loosen immigration. Increase education spending. Increase legal protection for unions. Place control of all businesses in the hands of the unions and nationalise those businesses lacking unions. Make internet free and connect every home to fiber. Ban new fossil fuel developments. Invest in the local solar and wind industries. Ban animal agriculture. Tighten up laws against online abuse and harassment. Create a new cybercrime investigation force completely unaffiliated with the police. Offer everyone a number of free therapist visits. Make weed and LSD legal.
How does not voting for Kamala Harris accomplish any of those things?
It doesn’t. I’m with Capable Kamala all the way.
Ah, right. I believe the original question in this thread was calling out the tankies who say both candidates are bad and the voting will not accomplish anything to say what the actual plan is, so not aimed at you.
Both candidates are bad. I’m still with Capable Kamala all the way. This is because I have the apparently rare gift among leftists of being able to do things I don’t like for a good reason.
The way this debate has been framed recently, everyone’s talking as though leftists only care about instant gratification and doing things that feel good. I have a bit more long term thinking than that.
deleted by creator
Progressives and leftists have tons of literature out there on the policies and ideas they want implemented to improve society, just because you haven’t bother to look up any doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist.
As to how that gets implemented again it’s out there but going to depend on what country and topic we’re taking about if you want someone to provide something specific.
More than happy to provide some but given the post was on “leftist discourse” I’m a little unclear on what specific topic you’re unable to find the leftist position for here.
So…you are tacitly admitting that the “lesser of two evils” trick will always work on you?
I don’t recall proposing a political process. I’ll engage with the strawman anyway. If I was president of this wretched hellscape, The bare minimum policies to start would be:
Electoral reform, labor reform, UBI, criminal justice reform, tax reform (wealth tax, inheritance tax, national property tax, tax on financial transactions), corporate death penalty, presumptive liability for corporate executives, bring the military and police to heel.
Uhh, sure, it is going to be very difficult to change the power structures in the United States that are entrenched into every facet of life and constantly propagandized through the media. I guess we should just give up and spend all our time fellating the ruling class.
Start here
Bernie Sanders? The Democrat?
Perfect response.
I would just like to add:
I think what the USian liberals on here are missing is perspective. I think they have a worldview where the election is all that matters, so any whiff of dissent MUST mean the “tankies” are out to make the blue team lose.
Liberals, do you really think undecided voters in swing states are making voting decisions based on political threads on Lemmy?
If you truly want to understand instead of just downvote and run, try and mentally transpose this situation onto the British empire 100+ years ago. Sure, there are elections, but the grinding bloodthirsty machine of empire proceeds apace with no regard to the election before or after. Sure, one party is worse, that’s the literal manipulative trap of first past the post.
When we look at this world, there is one nation that has been terrorizing the world for over 70 years. Unless you are very naive, you shouldn’t expect compliant national media to give a balanced portrait of this history.
We’re not going to stop talking about the bloodshed and the empire and the propaganda until it has been burned to the ground. You can join the media and intelligence services, and do everything in your power to silence us - or you could consider that perhaps our positions are principled. Perhaps we once believed just like you did, so we see how close you are to piercing the veil of deception.
Or we are all literally paid shills and you don’t have to change any of your beliefs because the United States is a beacon of freedom and justice to the whole world…