I just find it amusing when folks claim that their conscience and hands are clean when they played a part in getting trump elected.
It was a decision telling of priorities, and sending a message, or maintaining a clear conscience, was likely deemed more important than the ramifications a trump presidency. That’s why I mentioned the ivory tower - I assumed that you thought you weren’t going to be too affected by a trump presidency? Either that, or you wanted to maintain a clean conscious despite that? The latter is admirable in it’s own way, but i believe less likely when looking at entire populations.
“played a part in getting trump elected” this is so vague though. Because I can argue that you played a part on getting Trump elected by voting for Democrats for the past 50 years.
The lower class has been dying. It’s either death by a thousand cuts or whatever Trump and his cronies are doing. The faster the death the faster the lower class will react.
So you can see that as the silver lining on Trump’s election.
You CAN argue that, but could you look yourself in the mirror and say that’s a good faith argument when you don’t know how I voted for the last 50 years? That’s a good sign that your argument is simply deflection, by making up a strawman you’re hoping to avoid admitting that you had a role in getting trump elected. Your comment here indicates that you know you played a part, but I agree with you, the Democratic party put up a shit candidate and played a much larger part. My heart fell when Kamala indicated no policy changes in Palestine.
However, folks who ignored the effects of fptp voting to vote (or abstain) for the sake of their conscience do not have their hands clean of all of this. In seeking to protest a genocide, they have invited the start of a second genocide on our fellow citizens, as well as accelerated the original genocide they were protesting. These effects could’ve been seen from a million miles away.
It strikes me as privileged to be able to ignore the predictable real world effects of a decision, in the name of maintaining a clean conscience. Sure, maybe in a few voting cycles, the vote made a difference. I hope so, but I don’t think we’ve ever seen it happen historically. However, generally speaking, do not boast that your hands are clean of the trump administrations actions if your decisions (or lack of) in this election made it more likely for him to be elected. They are simply are not.
In seeking to protest a genocide, they have invited the start of a second genocide on our fellow citizens, as well as accelerated the original genocide they were protesting. These effects could’ve been seen from a million miles away.
You assume that the “second genocide” would not have happened under a Democratic leadership. Biden and Kamala gave Netanyahu free rein over Palestine. They placed red lines only to appease their base, and simply disregarded these lines when the Isreaeli government trampled over them. They smeared the protestors. They condemned the international courts, and they were cheering the genocidal maniac when he appeared before congress.
So no, I would never vote for this party. You might see DNC as the lesser of two evils. I just see it as plain evil, and I can’t in good faith ever vote for them. As I mentioned before, they only used the rights of minorities as smokescreen, to avoid introducing any meaningful changes.
You assume that the “second genocide” would not have happened under a Democratic leadership.
…yeah afaik there’s pretty good evidence that trans folks wouldn’t be culturally eliminated under the Biden administration. Do you disagree with that assumption?
And you’ve misunderstood me. I don’t care that you voted third party. As I mentioned, in some contexts that could be viewed as admirable. I’m not trying to convince you to vote Democrat.
Just don’t puff out your chest about claiming to have clean hands when, given the single most pronounced choice we have in determining government for the next cycle, you prioritized trying to maintain a clean conscience over keeping Trump out of the white house.
…yeah afaik there’s pretty good evidence that trans folks wouldn’t be culturally eliminated under the Biden administration. Do you disagree with that assumption?
I agree with that assumption. The thing I believe though, is that the Democratic Party leaned too heavily on that instead of focusing on what actually matters. And they did that because that was the only platform they could run on. They wanted to protect the status quo. And as we’ve seen at the inauguration, that same status quo was in the room cheering for Trump.
The years ahead will be difficult for sure, but I am hopeful that what will come out of the ashes, will be something better.
Just don’t puff out your chest about claiming to have clean hands when, given the single most pronounced choice we have in determining government for the next cycle, you prioritized trying to maintain a clean conscience over keeping Trump out of the white house.
I am not trying to come up on top. I was just responding to the commentator who was blaming the pro-palestine crowd for not voting for Kamala. They should have blamed the DNC instead.
You had a choice to make, either vote for one of them, assuming you’re American and can vote, or be complicit with whomever was elected. You can trick yourself into believing you had no impact on the outcome, but assume what I said earlier was true, you either helped trump get elected, and therefore have blood on your hands, or you voted against trump, and have blood on your hands, but less blood.
The result would be the same no matter the candidate. Gaza was razed to the ground while the democrats were in power. And not only that, but they actively backed the Israeli government. If we allow ourselves to betray our moral principles, then we are on a downwards spiral where each candidate can say and do whatever they want, as long as the candidate next to them is a tiny bit worse.
Hence why I said you had blood on your hands no matter what. This is where harm mitigation comes in, by not voting, you agree to whoever is elected, in this case trump who wants to further ethnic cleansing. This was the last election in the US as we know it. And trump isn’t a “tiny bit worse”.
Who said anything about not voting? There were not just two candidates last time I checked.
I agree to whoever gets elected, because that is how democracy works. As far as I am concerned that might be the last election in the US. period. And the Democratic Party is partly to blame.
Not voting for the only viable candidate that wasn’t an overt fascist is empowering fascists. The democrats aren’t solely to blame those who allowed a fascist dictator to come into power share the blame
Thank you, yes when it comes to a fascist dictator vs a non fascist, non dictator, voting for the non fascist non dictator is the only viable option, unless you’re OK with a fascist dictator.
Unfortunately most people here are in their early twenties and have yet to learn about the flaws of FPTP. Sadly this was probably their most important election and they fucked it up.
I was not complicit in getting either of them elected. My hands are clean, and so is my conscience.
This is prime “enlightened third party voter” meme material right here.
Must be nice in that ivory tower.
And this is prime “You didn’t vote for my shit candidate, therefore you are literally Hitler”.
It is certainly nice to not have blood on my hands.
Oh I didn’t say that.
I just find it amusing when folks claim that their conscience and hands are clean when they played a part in getting trump elected.
It was a decision telling of priorities, and sending a message, or maintaining a clear conscience, was likely deemed more important than the ramifications a trump presidency. That’s why I mentioned the ivory tower - I assumed that you thought you weren’t going to be too affected by a trump presidency? Either that, or you wanted to maintain a clean conscious despite that? The latter is admirable in it’s own way, but i believe less likely when looking at entire populations.
“played a part in getting trump elected” this is so vague though. Because I can argue that you played a part on getting Trump elected by voting for Democrats for the past 50 years.
The lower class has been dying. It’s either death by a thousand cuts or whatever Trump and his cronies are doing. The faster the death the faster the lower class will react.
So you can see that as the silver lining on Trump’s election.
You CAN argue that, but could you look yourself in the mirror and say that’s a good faith argument when you don’t know how I voted for the last 50 years? That’s a good sign that your argument is simply deflection, by making up a strawman you’re hoping to avoid admitting that you had a role in getting trump elected. Your comment here indicates that you know you played a part, but I agree with you, the Democratic party put up a shit candidate and played a much larger part. My heart fell when Kamala indicated no policy changes in Palestine.
However, folks who ignored the effects of fptp voting to vote (or abstain) for the sake of their conscience do not have their hands clean of all of this. In seeking to protest a genocide, they have invited the start of a second genocide on our fellow citizens, as well as accelerated the original genocide they were protesting. These effects could’ve been seen from a million miles away.
It strikes me as privileged to be able to ignore the predictable real world effects of a decision, in the name of maintaining a clean conscience. Sure, maybe in a few voting cycles, the vote made a difference. I hope so, but I don’t think we’ve ever seen it happen historically. However, generally speaking, do not boast that your hands are clean of the trump administrations actions if your decisions (or lack of) in this election made it more likely for him to be elected. They are simply are not.
You assume that the “second genocide” would not have happened under a Democratic leadership. Biden and Kamala gave Netanyahu free rein over Palestine. They placed red lines only to appease their base, and simply disregarded these lines when the Isreaeli government trampled over them. They smeared the protestors. They condemned the international courts, and they were cheering the genocidal maniac when he appeared before congress.
So no, I would never vote for this party. You might see DNC as the lesser of two evils. I just see it as plain evil, and I can’t in good faith ever vote for them. As I mentioned before, they only used the rights of minorities as smokescreen, to avoid introducing any meaningful changes.
…yeah afaik there’s pretty good evidence that trans folks wouldn’t be culturally eliminated under the Biden administration. Do you disagree with that assumption?
And you’ve misunderstood me. I don’t care that you voted third party. As I mentioned, in some contexts that could be viewed as admirable. I’m not trying to convince you to vote Democrat.
Just don’t puff out your chest about claiming to have clean hands when, given the single most pronounced choice we have in determining government for the next cycle, you prioritized trying to maintain a clean conscience over keeping Trump out of the white house.
I agree with that assumption. The thing I believe though, is that the Democratic Party leaned too heavily on that instead of focusing on what actually matters. And they did that because that was the only platform they could run on. They wanted to protect the status quo. And as we’ve seen at the inauguration, that same status quo was in the room cheering for Trump.
The years ahead will be difficult for sure, but I am hopeful that what will come out of the ashes, will be something better.
I am not trying to come up on top. I was just responding to the commentator who was blaming the pro-palestine crowd for not voting for Kamala. They should have blamed the DNC instead.
You had a choice to make, either vote for one of them, assuming you’re American and can vote, or be complicit with whomever was elected. You can trick yourself into believing you had no impact on the outcome, but assume what I said earlier was true, you either helped trump get elected, and therefore have blood on your hands, or you voted against trump, and have blood on your hands, but less blood.
The result would be the same no matter the candidate. Gaza was razed to the ground while the democrats were in power. And not only that, but they actively backed the Israeli government. If we allow ourselves to betray our moral principles, then we are on a downwards spiral where each candidate can say and do whatever they want, as long as the candidate next to them is a tiny bit worse.
Hence why I said you had blood on your hands no matter what. This is where harm mitigation comes in, by not voting, you agree to whoever is elected, in this case trump who wants to further ethnic cleansing. This was the last election in the US as we know it. And trump isn’t a “tiny bit worse”.
Who said anything about not voting? There were not just two candidates last time I checked.
I agree to whoever gets elected, because that is how democracy works. As far as I am concerned that might be the last election in the US. period. And the Democratic Party is partly to blame.
Not voting for the only viable candidate that wasn’t an overt fascist is empowering fascists. The democrats aren’t solely to blame those who allowed a fascist dictator to come into power share the blame
Not voting for candidate = voting for them.
Solid logic.
Telling people how they have to vote.
Also, solid logic.
Thank you, yes when it comes to a fascist dictator vs a non fascist, non dictator, voting for the non fascist non dictator is the only viable option, unless you’re OK with a fascist dictator.
Pretty fucking clear.
Unfortunately most people here are in their early twenties and have yet to learn about the flaws of FPTP. Sadly this was probably their most important election and they fucked it up.