Language and ethnicity go hand in hand in hand. If you hear people removed about languages they don’t speak, or being very proud of the language they do speak, it’s because they’re racist.
I’m proud to have learned German as a second language, because it’s complex and precise, not because of any preexisting affinity for German speaking people.
As someone learning German right now, I can agree on complex but I’m not sure precise is very accurate. There seems to be a lot of assumptions based on context to know what one means. Maybe a more educated person could chime in, but I have not felt like the German language has made things more precise in communicating concepts (but full disclosure I’m at the A1 level going into A2).
German can be very precise. However it requires people to pay attention to the details, which they often don’t.
The nuances become dependent on context and the respective knowledge of the originator and receptor.
Legal German for instance is very precise, in that every word matters. But then you need to analyze every word and understand its context.
I have taken a random paragraph from the civil law (BGB) (note that i am not a lawyer and only learned some of the interpretation of civil laws in basic courses for non legal professionals, so it is just my best guess. It should suffice for getting the point accross.)
§ 851 Ersatzleistung an Nichtberechtigten
Leistet der wegen der Entziehung oder Beschädigung einer beweglichen Sache zum Schadensersatz Verpflichtete den Ersatz an denjenigen, in dessen Besitz sich die Sache zur Zeit der Entziehung oder der Beschädigung befunden hat, so wird er durch die Leistung auch dann befreit, wenn ein Dritter Eigentümer der Sache war oder ein sonstiges Recht an der Sache hatte, es sei denn, dass ihm das Recht des Dritten bekannt oder infolge grober Fahrlässigkeit unbekannt ist.
Actually this example is perfect. First of all, it is just one construct of main sentence and side sentences. Lets dive in:
Leistet der wegen der Entziehung oder Beschädigung einer beweglichen Sache zum Schadensersatz Verpflichtete den Ersatz an denjenigen
“If the person who is liable for the damage or withholding of a movable object pays the replacement to the person who”
in dessen Besitz sich die Sache zur Zeit der Entziehung oder der Beschädigung befunden hat
“the person who, had ownership (not the same as property rights) on the object at the time of the damage or withholding”
So this second sentence is specifying the person in question.
so wird er durch die Leistung auch dann befreit
“so he will be freed of the duty even if”
Note that the “he” here is the person who has the duty to pay liability
wenn ein Dritter Eigentümer der Sache war oder ein sonstiges Recht an der Sache hatte
“if a third person is proprietor of the object or had another right on the object”
es sei denn, dass ihm das Recht des Dritten bekannt oder infolge grober Fahrlässigkeit unbekannt ist.
“except that he had known the right of the third person or his lack of knowledge comes from gross negligence.”
Again the “he” is the one who owes the liability.
What does all of that mean? Take for example you damage the car of a rental company. If you didn’t see the car to be of a rental company and the driver tells you “give me 1,000 € and the damage is covered” and you pay that to him, you don’t owe another 1,000 € to the rental company when it comes to you. However if you had known it to be a rental car or you must have known, as for instance the logo of the rental company is on the car with the notice that this car is rentable, then you owe the money to the rental company.
However this has a few caveats for which it is crucial to read every single word and understand it. First of all the object needs to be movable. So if you damage a house this paragraph does not apply. Then you have to have the duty to pay the compensation and you have to give compensation for this law to apply. All of this is in the first sentence.
Then it is important that the object has been in the control/ownership of the person you give it to at the time of the damage. Now obviously if the driver is inside the car that is clear. But what if he was about to pick up the car from the parking lot and he has already unlocked it, but not entered yet as you damage it. Is he in ownership of the car yet? Here lawyers will start to have fun arguing. Also important is that the right was “had”. When was it “had”? At the time when the liability was created.
Third is then pretty straightforward for the example of a rental car. The car is property of the rental company. However what if the property is disputed, say because it is a slightly damaged shipment from one business to another business and they argue if the property was transferred or not? Which brings us to the exception that this does not work if you know or would have had to know that the property rights belong to someone else. Again something lawyers will have fun with.
Standard German can be all of precise, succinct, and clear at the same time trouble with that is that nobody talks like that. It’s a Dachsprache / contact variety build out by, among other disciplines, science. By all measures the stuff you learn in school (whether abroad or domestically) is a constructed language. And it’s mostly science which uses that kind of mode, e.g. administrative German is precise and (notoriously, excessively) objective but also verbose AF.
And it seems to be a mode that doesn’t really translate. I’m always baffled by Anglos saying that Kant is hard to read.
Written German is incredibly precise, IMO (I have C2 German, teach it as a second language at a university in Germany, and am currently getting a masters degree in German instruction). I came from a background in legal writing in English, and the amount of references that each sentence after the first in a text needs to the sentence before it was still staggering. The grade on my first thesis paper was an unwelcome surprise, but it can be learned.
Just attempting to understand what you wrote here, are you saying that German writing requires a massive number of references to past statements to be understood and that somehow makes it more precise?
Well, yes. I can write a series of sentences in English without building in references to explain exactly how they relate to each other, but German writing explicates their relationship to each other.
Thus there’s technically more vagueness in written English, though the reader makes the leap (if the writer is an effective communicator).
As a small example, I went back and forth about including “thus” in the above sentence. I don’t think it’s necessary even in formal, written English, but it would be in German.
For example, Spanish is my first language. I didn’t really care for it much, but the more I learned other languages the more I’ve come to really like Spanish because it has well defined rules and a LACK of EXCEPTIONS (looking at Finnish specifically. English at least is so broken you can understand it when grammatically wrong, but Finnish clearly needs a revision).
What’s the point of learning the grammar rules when 25% is “actually there’s no reason behind this word not following the rules so you’ll just have to remember it’s different”??? Even more frustrating when the rules can still perfectly work with covering the topic or the word! To the point of you can say it “wrong” by following existing grammar rules but still be understood sometimes because it makes more sense than the damn actual usage of the word!
And then some rules are dumb. Either go full out like Chinese and make a writing system separate from your spoken system or actually have one comply with the other.
I complain about French all the time not because I hate French people but because I can’t remember which direction the fucking accent goes, it’s been like 8 years of failing French class, please send help
Language and ethnicity go hand in hand in hand. If you hear people removed about languages they don’t speak, or being very proud of the language they do speak, it’s because they’re racist.
So yeah, France.
russia
I’m proud to have learned German as a second language, because it’s complex and precise, not because of any preexisting affinity for German speaking people.
As someone learning German right now, I can agree on complex but I’m not sure precise is very accurate. There seems to be a lot of assumptions based on context to know what one means. Maybe a more educated person could chime in, but I have not felt like the German language has made things more precise in communicating concepts (but full disclosure I’m at the A1 level going into A2).
German can be very precise. However it requires people to pay attention to the details, which they often don’t.
The nuances become dependent on context and the respective knowledge of the originator and receptor.
Legal German for instance is very precise, in that every word matters. But then you need to analyze every word and understand its context.
I have taken a random paragraph from the civil law (BGB) (note that i am not a lawyer and only learned some of the interpretation of civil laws in basic courses for non legal professionals, so it is just my best guess. It should suffice for getting the point accross.)
Actually this example is perfect. First of all, it is just one construct of main sentence and side sentences. Lets dive in:
“If the person who is liable for the damage or withholding of a movable object pays the replacement to the person who”
“the person who, had ownership (not the same as property rights) on the object at the time of the damage or withholding”
So this second sentence is specifying the person in question.
“so he will be freed of the duty even if”
Note that the “he” here is the person who has the duty to pay liability
“if a third person is proprietor of the object or had another right on the object”
“except that he had known the right of the third person or his lack of knowledge comes from gross negligence.”
Again the “he” is the one who owes the liability.
What does all of that mean? Take for example you damage the car of a rental company. If you didn’t see the car to be of a rental company and the driver tells you “give me 1,000 € and the damage is covered” and you pay that to him, you don’t owe another 1,000 € to the rental company when it comes to you. However if you had known it to be a rental car or you must have known, as for instance the logo of the rental company is on the car with the notice that this car is rentable, then you owe the money to the rental company.
However this has a few caveats for which it is crucial to read every single word and understand it. First of all the object needs to be movable. So if you damage a house this paragraph does not apply. Then you have to have the duty to pay the compensation and you have to give compensation for this law to apply. All of this is in the first sentence.
Then it is important that the object has been in the control/ownership of the person you give it to at the time of the damage. Now obviously if the driver is inside the car that is clear. But what if he was about to pick up the car from the parking lot and he has already unlocked it, but not entered yet as you damage it. Is he in ownership of the car yet? Here lawyers will start to have fun arguing. Also important is that the right was “had”. When was it “had”? At the time when the liability was created.
Third is then pretty straightforward for the example of a rental car. The car is property of the rental company. However what if the property is disputed, say because it is a slightly damaged shipment from one business to another business and they argue if the property was transferred or not? Which brings us to the exception that this does not work if you know or would have had to know that the property rights belong to someone else. Again something lawyers will have fun with.
Standard German can be all of precise, succinct, and clear at the same time trouble with that is that nobody talks like that. It’s a Dachsprache / contact variety build out by, among other disciplines, science. By all measures the stuff you learn in school (whether abroad or domestically) is a constructed language. And it’s mostly science which uses that kind of mode, e.g. administrative German is precise and (notoriously, excessively) objective but also verbose AF.
And it seems to be a mode that doesn’t really translate. I’m always baffled by Anglos saying that Kant is hard to read.
What do you mean by “AF”?
@barsoap @gusgalarnyk
as fuck.
Written German is incredibly precise, IMO (I have C2 German, teach it as a second language at a university in Germany, and am currently getting a masters degree in German instruction). I came from a background in legal writing in English, and the amount of references that each sentence after the first in a text needs to the sentence before it was still staggering. The grade on my first thesis paper was an unwelcome surprise, but it can be learned.
Just attempting to understand what you wrote here, are you saying that German writing requires a massive number of references to past statements to be understood and that somehow makes it more precise?
Well, yes. I can write a series of sentences in English without building in references to explain exactly how they relate to each other, but German writing explicates their relationship to each other.
Thus there’s technically more vagueness in written English, though the reader makes the leap (if the writer is an effective communicator).
As a small example, I went back and forth about including “thus” in the above sentence. I don’t think it’s necessary even in formal, written English, but it would be in German.
Deswegen, deshalb, darum, daher, or demzufolge?
therefore, hence, by conclusion, for this reason…
Also 😁
I suppose it’s more specifically pride in a first language.
There’s still exceptions.
For example, Spanish is my first language. I didn’t really care for it much, but the more I learned other languages the more I’ve come to really like Spanish because it has well defined rules and a LACK of EXCEPTIONS (looking at Finnish specifically. English at least is so broken you can understand it when grammatically wrong, but Finnish clearly needs a revision).
What’s the point of learning the grammar rules when 25% is “actually there’s no reason behind this word not following the rules so you’ll just have to remember it’s different”??? Even more frustrating when the rules can still perfectly work with covering the topic or the word! To the point of you can say it “wrong” by following existing grammar rules but still be understood sometimes because it makes more sense than the damn actual usage of the word!
And then some rules are dumb. Either go full out like Chinese and make a writing system separate from your spoken system or actually have one comply with the other.
I complain about French all the time not because I hate French people but because I can’t remember which direction the fucking accent goes, it’s been like 8 years of failing French class, please send help
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