cross-posted from: https://sh.itjust.works/post/43241710
And everyone thought registries were only for sex offenders. If it works to punish them then why not on those who don’t want to work?
cross-posted from: https://sh.itjust.works/post/43241710
And everyone thought registries were only for sex offenders. If it works to punish them then why not on those who don’t want to work?
As a state run List / database, this is pretty much inherently evil
As an industry group, it sounds like a great idea IMO. As a hiring manager with limited hours in the day, the percentage of recent college grads who either ghost the interview or – 100x worse – literally ghost the job and never show or take another offer after accepting mine … I mostly just want to blacklist the asshat so they don’t continue fucking over other honest hard working people
Ah yes, “nobody wants to work anymore, and I know that because these entitled college grads decided to work a different job instead of the shitty one I offered them.”
If people are going through the effort to take an interview (usually multiple rounds) and go all the way through the process until an offer is made and then still don’t accept the job, then that is 50% on the hiring manager not being upfront about working conditions, pay, and other benefits throughout the process and 50% on the company for not offering adequate pay and benefits that match the work. This is 0% on the person who had their time wasted by the interview process. They were obviously worth more than what they were offered as evidenced by receiving a better offer somewhere else.
I don’t think that people need to go to a job interview if they don’t intend to take a job — that’s wasting their time and that of the interviewers.
But that’s not what the parent comment is talking about. He’s talking about no-shows. Someone schedules an interview and then just never shows up.
I think that it’s pretty unreasonable to just no-show a job interview if you don’t want the job. Call and cancel.
People who are interviewing are going to organize their day around interviewing you. It dicks with them to leave that block allocated.
When he’s taking about ghosting the job, he’s not saying that people should be obligated to not take another, preferable offer. He’s saying that they never tell him that they’re doing so after telling him that they’re accepting his offer. Call and at least tell them that you’re pulling out.
So here is the problem I think.
In a sane world, you would put up a job ad, 5 people with relevant skills apply, you interview them and select one. If I’m a candidate, I’d have to send in 5 applications to 5 companies, and do an interview with each to find a job.
But then recruiters today won’t even start interviewing with 5 candidates applying, they wait until at least like 100, of which they will call in like 20. So the company needs to do 20 interviews, I as an applicant have to do 20 interviews, and write 100 applications on average.
But since most places won’t call me in, even if I’m qualified, since they will wait until an arbitrary number of applications and then won’t call in everyone qualified, I need to send in as many applications as I can since I need to pay the bills next month, so all companies will receive hundreds of not-really-qualified job applications as well.
Then again, companies want to simplify the problem from their side, so they automate resume checks. This errs on the side of false negatives, since there is barely any cost to filtering out a good candidate versus not filtering out a bad one. Then, when recruiters realise they don’t have to check applications by hand anymore, they increase the arbitrary “no interviews under 100 applications” number to 1000 or 2000 or whatever, the more the better, right?
And then add AI checks, AI applications, malicious companies advertising with no actual job just to “check the market”, staffing companies making fake applications to flood the market and make it impossible for companies to hire from outside them, and other shit.
You end up with people submitting dozens if not hundreds of applications per day, for months, and they will of course not be able to even keep track of each application and each interview. Imagine you’ve been ghosted 2000 times over 6 months. Would you make sure you don’t do the same to some recruiter that will statistically most likely ghost you anyway? Or fuck off, clear your calendar and be happy that you’re done with this shit?
Calendars? It’s no different from scheduling anything else. Meetings, social events, doctors appointments, etc, everything goes in a calendar. Whether there’s 5 items or 5000, it works the same way.
Yeah, but then do you send off 5000 emails? What if the only contact is through a per-company Workday account, Whatsapp, Linkedin, whatever?
And again, you’ve just been ghosted by hundreds of people, so that set the expectations the other way.
In what world will you have 5000 job interviews scheduled? Most people only manage to get up to five at a time if they’re lucky.
I am getting downvoted to hell and shouldn’t give these people the pleasure of knowing this but…
I have multiple times missed time with my wife and children because I wanted to get an important job filled by someone I was excited to hire. Who ghosted me.
And I am saying, people who casually waste other’s time and goodwill, should have a reputation that catches up with them, sooner rather than later, for the good of all.
What the fuck is wrong with people that I am the bad guy here, seriously
You shouldn’t neglect your children for your job, even if it doesn’t go wrong and you are rewarded (lol) for your efforts.
Keep them on normal working ours and it shouldn’t be an issue. They are not wasting your time, you are still getting paid unless you on some moronic payment scheme. You can argue they are wasting the company’s money but that’s just the cost of doing business.
But seriously if you actually have children, you should put them first. Anything else will make you a horrible person in a lot of people’s eyes. Worst case, scenario it will make them resent you.
Sure, wasting peoples time is awful and should be avoided (from both sides). The thing is, coming in saying that any government list/database is inherently evil, so let’s have private companies do it instead is a take that is bound to invite some very heated arguments.
An industry list is a system that (I believe) is ripe for abuse.
Some problems I can think of from the top of my head
Also, an industry blacklisting an individual does not have an even effect as a reciprocal list where companies with unfair hiring practices (such as ghost jobs that never get filled or ghosting applicants without explanation) get listed. If the effect would be the same (i.e. not being able to work in said field), then the sanction on a company would effectively be dissolution (difficult to run a company if you are not able to do any work in the field that your company specializes in).
I feel for you missing out on time with your family. I have myself also worked overtime because I was enthousiastic about a specific project or task, but part of choosing to work that overtime is accepting the risk that the time will not be successful or productive.
If this has happend multiple times, I would say, be less flexible in your planning, and don’t work overtime but spend time with your loved ones. (If you live in a jurisdiction where overtime is not defacto mandatory)
Say there is a pile of company time wasted by applicants and a pile of applicant time wasted by companies, then I think we both know which pile is bigger.
Doesn’t all this happen with a government list too? The problem is making a demerit list with parties that could be interested in abusing it. Is a government list going to be any more likely to verify that the reports are accurate?
I guess theoretically a government list is more beholden to the general public, but in reality that’s rarely how things actually play out. The whole reason this exists at all is because business has influence with politicians that regular voters don’t. It certainly isn’t a priority of the general voting population.
I am not saying that a government list like the one proposed in Ohio is good. I think it is terrible. But a list managed by an industry group where the keepers of the list are direct stakeholders of the list, while not beholdend to Freedom of Information requests, as suggested by the parent comment, is even worse.
Missing time with your family for work is an awful precedent to set. A lot of people don’t give a shit about their work and don’t care to let it take away from their life.
If I am interviewing, I’m going in with the mindset that I am selling my body/mind to the highest bidder for 8 hours a day, every day, for the foreseeable future. Any time outside of that, I am not thinking about the employer at all. If you and your company aren’t the highest bidder, you aren’t worth my time.
You sound transactional. Maybe you’ll be President
Work is transactional. I show up, they pay me. What else would it be? This is not how I view my life outside of work, my relationships, or my friendships. But work is 100% a transaction.
at will employment.
want assurances? start by giving them
Looking for a job is itself like having a full-time job. If someone determines that what you’re offering isn’t what they’re looking for, it’s understandable that they don’t want to waste any more of their time.
“Not interested, thank you”
Vs
(Ghost … tumbleweed… how long you gonna wait?)
Sure, as long as we can also include companies and hiring managers that ghost applicants and rescind offers.
This isn’t an issue of ghosting though. It’s about reneging on an agreement. You’re telling someone you’ll meet them at a particular time and then not showing up. The equivalent on the hiring side would be if you told an applicant that you’ll let them know what the decision is by a certain date and then not doing it. If you made no such promise, then that’s a different story. Rescinding an offer is equally problematic, but I’m pretty sure you can take legal action against them for something like that. Promissory estoppel I think?
How is recinding an offer not reneging on an agreement?
It is? And they’re not allowed to do that, right? I’m not that familiar with law, but that’s what I see every time people talk about their job offers getting rescinded.
Ah, maybe I misunderstood you. You said that it is not an issue of ghosting but of reneging on an agreement, while the parent comment had a clear example of reneging on an agreement. Also, as far as I know rescinded job offers are quite difficult to persue legally as contracts usually have some trial period where any side can cease the contract for any reason (or are completely at will). But I have never persued such action so I am not sure what the precedent is.
What’s it like to watch Fox News these days?
Oh poor you, it must be so hard being a piece of shit…
I feel your pain. I used to be in the same situation. It’s incredible how many people no-call/no-show after scheduling an interview.
Maybe make them a better offer…People dont no-show to a job that has good benefits, salary, etc.
They no-show when they realize the job isnt worth it. That’s on you and your dumbass company for trying to lowball everyone you hire.
One typically “makes an offer” after an interview has actually taken place.
Do you tell them salary and benefits after the interview? Bcz thats backwards… I want to know up front what im trading my services for. If you cant tell me that before the interview, there’s no reason to waste my time or yours.
You and this dude seem to think that youre doing some kind of service just by giving people jobs. Well, you’re not.
I’m curious when you and I because such horrible people. Acting like we deserve basic courtesies auch as being told if someone is no longer interested, so we can get the job filled
Expecting basic curtesies and being frustrated and irritated when someone did not do a tiny bit of effort to save you a lot of time and money is fine.
Advocating for an industrialized system to ruin peoples lives because of it is the problem.
I hate to break it to you, but I think we’re the man.