As someone from Germany, reading this makes me angry.
I don’t have the solution for this conflict, but when seeing the concentration camps in my country and understanding how much they must have hated Jews that they aimed to kill EVERYONE of them…
This is not the same! We all know that Israel did not even want to be there until Hamas butchered and kidnapped Israelis last year. Otherwise, they could have stayed there during the last invasion.
The holocaust comparison does not help anyone.
Edit: Very nice… Downvoting different views on this comparison without sharing arguments… Closing the door for discourse is always very useful!!!111 There is actually much we could agree on regarding this war, but yeah, go ahead and dislike me for not sharing your view that this is like the Holocaust. I’m from Germany where we visited tge remains of concentration camps twice during school time… What do I know…? :/
In case you haven’t noticed the blocade of Israel on Food, Water and Energy for Gaza (not to mention their destruction of hospitals in there) and Israel’s very own propaganda attack on the biggest humanitarian help organisation in Gaza - the UNWRA - which was without hesitation, disgracefully and shamefully used by countries such as Germany and the US to cut the very funding to the UNWRA that goes to keep Gazans alive, the Israeli Government is most definitely trying to starve Gazans to death, which is cheaper than using Zyklon B but the outcome is the same (it’s actually worse as starvation is a very painful and very slow way to die whilst Zyklon B was faster and painless).
It’s not a Nazi-level Holocaust yet but the Israeli government (along the nations “unwaveringly” supporting this genocide such as the US and Germany) are most definitelly trying hard to either mass murder Gazans (in many ways, from bombing them to destroying their healthcare facilities and starving them) or pushing them out using terror and starvation as weapons.
Just because the concentration camp in Palestine called Gaza doesn’t look like a bunch of sheds with old fashioned razor wire around it but instead looks like an overcrowded city with walls and patrols around it and Israeli gunboats patroling the coast, you haven’t yet seen hundreds of films made in Hollywood decrying it (and probably never will: notice how the biggest massacre ever, in Rwanda, has no fancy Hollywood movies reminding us of it), and the sharpshooters murdering women and chidren in it don’t zig heil each other, doesn’t mean this is not a modern version of the Holocaust in the making.
You stop the Holocaust before it becomes a proper Nazi-level mass murder of people due to their etnicity, you don’t just wait until it becomes “just like the Nazi Holocaust” all the while excusing your inaction with “it’s not quite like the Nazi Holocaust [yet]” only to turn around after it reaches Nazi-Holocaust levels and claim “there’s nothing we could’ve done”.
to cut the very funding to the UNWRA that goes to keep Gazans alive
Where is the point where you mention that there is proof that multiple (at least 12, maybe more) UNWRA people have actually been involved in the massacre on Israel last year? Oh, you ignored that fact…
which is cheaper than using Zyklon B
Reading this is disgusting.
It should be clear that the more people get killed there, the harder it is for Israel to get support from the Western world in the future. There is no reason to do what the Nazis did and “kill as much as possible of a specific group” here.
It’s not a Nazi-level Holocaust yet
So, you think, it’s only a “Mini-holocaust”? Or a “10% holocaust”? I’d suggest not using the word if it does not fit.
To make this a more productive dialog: Given the fact that what happened can’t be undone: What would you suggest Israel to do now?
“Israel says” is the entirety of the “proof” and anybody who activelly helps one side of the conflict starve the civilians of the other side based on nothing but the “word” of the side that’s doing the starving are cold calous biased sociopaths and if that bias is because of the etnicity of the people on those sides, that makes them cold, calous racist sociopaths, and that racist motivation is painfully obviously in this case for nations such as Germany and the US because for years their politicians have been harping on and on about Israel being a “Jewish Nation”, something wholly irrelevant for anybody but a racist.
I don’t suggest shit for Israel to do because they’re as out of control as the Nazis once were and will not do the right thing without being forced to do it (and they’ve became like that because of the unwavering support of large racist nations)
The fairest solution for that is the two state solution according to the borders set in the agreement that was done way back by Isaak Rabin and Arafat - the very same that Bibi totally undermined in his first time on government after one of his supporters murdered Isaak Rabin - and that has to be imposed on Israel by the rest of the World through massive sanctions and a blockade, and before that happens this racist sociopath shit of “unwavering” support because of the etnicity of its people for a nation committing massive atrocities against civilians of a different etnicity, has to stop.
Germany is siding with racist sociopath mass murders because of their race, AGAIN, and that, at least for me, it’s a huge dissapointment because thinking that any act, no matter how horrible and how driven by deep racism, is excusable because of the etnicity of those doing it, is the way of thinking that was used to underpin support for Nazism.
Come on… Do you really think that multiple governments are like “Ah, Israel says that, so it must be true. No need for further research. We cancel support for UNWRA now!!!”.
I don’t suggest shit for Israel to do because they’re as out of control as the Nazis once were
WTF am I reading there??? Is this a new hobby? Comparing everything with Nazi Germany? Let me guess… Netanyahu is as bad as Hitler?
I’m sorry, but I don’t even want to read the rest of it… It’s too much of a buzzword bingo at this point…
I just want to tell you what I think is the “best” outcome at this point. And I think, the “best” outcome would be a permanent solution, not what we had before, because that led us to where we are now…
Steps:
Hamas loses power completely (their main goal is to get rid of Israel, so there is no permanent peace with them)
Netanyahu loses power (even far before the massacre happened, he proved that he is not interested in a permanent peace)
New governments agree on a 2-state-solution (or 3-state-solution)
There is no step 3 without step 1 and 2.
IMO, most of the other “solutions” (especially those that let Hamas in power) bring “peace” for a few years, but make sure that afterwards, this decade-long disaster continues for many more decades. This shit needs to end forever.
The US Administration admitted that their only source for the accusations about UNWRA employees in Gaza was “intelligence provided by Israel”, so clearly their decision was taken based entirelly on “we trust Israel” and then the usual suspects followed very quickly, all or almost all being the ones who always declared “unwavering” support for Israel (one could call them The Cohalition Of Racists since they’re also the ones that always harped about the whole “Jewish Nation” thing, a concern that only makes sense for racists), clearly motivated by something else than the conclusions of a proper, independent, investigation of the claims.
There was a permanent solution, then a far-right Israeli extremist murdered Isaak Rabin, then Bibi got elected by the majority of Israelis and promptly renegued on the permanent solution.
Renegotiating a 2-state solution is just a stalling strategy from the racists because they know everytime it was done in the past it just served to force the Palestinians to accept more of the status quo of land stollen by Israel in the meanwhile with their “colonates”, and was always eventually reneguede upon by Israel when it stopped being usefull and in order to capture more land.
More such negotiations now would just reward Israel for taking more land and killing more Palestinians since the last such negotiated “solution” (on which Israel as always renegued once it wasn’t useful for them anymore) and then proceeded to steal more land and kill more innocents, which is pretty rationale for Ukraine not accepting a peace settlement with Russia were they concede more land to Russia: there will never be permanent peace when the invader again and again steal lands, gets to keep the land they stole with a “negotiated solution” and then after consolidating once again does the same thing all over again taking even more land.
The only solution is to go back enough that Israel loses all it has stollen in the meanwhile and all the gains from stealling Palestinian land since the Far-Right got into power in Israel and started a systematic policy of stealing Palestinian land and killing any Palestinian that resisted it, and the only way to make sure any solution is permanent in the face of systematic Israeli lies and breaking of their own international commitments (“unwaveringly” protected by the members of the Cohalition Of Racists such as the US and Germany) is massive sanctions and a blocade until they comply and the same afterwards if they renegue on it in even the smallest of ways.
There cannot be a permanent solution without serious external punishment for breaking their commitment when the stronger side systematically renegues on it when they see fit with no consequences, steal more land and consolidate again afterwards by “negotiating” the next such “permanent” solution.
For decades Israel has shown itself to be even less trustworthy and more murderous than Russia (which must be some kind of record) and needs to be treated like you would treat any other such violent rogue nation.
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As for the Nazi comparisons, go take it with Bibi and his bunch of Fascists demanding a “final solution”, suggesting Gaza should be nuked, calling Palestinians very explicitly “human animals” and “violent” along with murdering more civilians, more journalists, more healthcare workers and more humanitarian workers in a short time frame than everybody but the Nazis (in some cases, more than everybody else ever, including the Nazis) - they’re the ones that in their Fascist Racist words and violent deeds have transcended (especially in terms of violence) every other genocidal Fascist regime in modern history but the Nazis.
Had they not broken all records except the one of the Nazis of racist violence by a state, everybody would still be comparing them to Appartheid South Africa, not to the Nazis.
Don’t want to be compared to the Nazis, don’t use their style of propaganda and their etnic cleansing deeds as inspiration.
The US Administration admitted that their only source for the accusations about UNWRA employees in Gaza was “intelligence provided by Israel”
Where is the source for that?
And what does source mean? If Israel sent video material that shows UNWRA employees murdering Israelis, that should be enough, right?
There was a permanent solution, then a far-right Israeli extremist murdered Isaak Rabin, then Bibi got elected by the majority of Israelis and promptly renegued on the permanent solution.
Nice… And this is exactly why this war continues… Because of shit in the past. But with that logic, there will be no end.
Renegotiating a 2-state solution is just a stalling strategy from the racists
Who are the racists now? Are you actually classifying a whole nation as “racists”? That would be kind of… racist.
The only solution is to go back enough that Israel loses all it has stollen in the meanwhile
And now, let’s take a moment and ask, whether this is realistic… I’m not from Israel. I’m not from Gaza or the West Bank… But I can assure you that this is 1) not the only solution and 2) not really realistic. And I think, this is not actually the main wish of the people there. They are both sick of the never-ending war. That’s their main problem.
massive sanctions and a blocade until they comply
Comply with what? Retreating from Gaza, so that Hamas re-gathers power, so that this conflict can go on forever?
Let’s assume, it happens like that… Hamas (remember: they state that their main goal is to destroy Israel) builds new rockets, waits for 2 years and shoots them over the border again and kills a few hundred more people… What then? Don’t you see this never-ending cycle, that can’t be broken with Hamas in power?
As for the Nazi comparisons, go take it with Bibi and his bunch of Fascists demanding a “final solution”, suggesting Gaza should be nuked, calling Palestinians very explicitly “human animals”
Alright, the buzzword bingo begins again… No, thanks.
The concentration camps in the east, like Auschwitz, were almost exclusively extermination camps meant to wipe out whoever entered on an industrial scale. Gaza is not an extermination camp.
The “normal” concentration camps weren’t significantly better. Around 10% - 50% of inmates died, depending on the camp - be it from starvation, illness, medical experimentation or just live target practice.
Is every single Gazan enslaved and forced to build Israeli weapons and does Israel prevent Gazans from leaving under threat of collective punishment?
Gaza is the dictionary definition of a ghetto, not a concentration camp.
The concentration camps in the east, like Auschwitz…
So what. What do you want me to say?: “Well OK, Hitler was better at making concentration camps.”
The “normal” concentration camps weren’t significantly better. Around 10% - 50% of inmates died, depending on the camp - be it from starvation, illness, medical experimentation or just live target practice.
For the last few decades, getting aid into Gaza has been difficult. Isreal has refused to relinquish it as it’s own territory; even though it was obvious these people don’t want to be Isreali.
Is every single Gazan enslaved and forced to build Israeli weapons
Isreal has Biden on speed dial; why do Gazan children need to build wepons for Isreal?
does Israel prevent Gazans from leaving under threat of collective punishment?
You are right. They got punished for staying on their land. The issue is you don’t understand why Palestinians are punished. Not being Jewish is NOT a crime. Speaking Arabic is not a crime. Imagine if you go tell the French, “All Roman Catholic Latin speakers need to go back to Rome.” Palestinians are a natural product of history. History did not stop in when Israel fell in 722 BC or when Judah fell in the 500s BC.
Gaza is the dictionary definition of a ghetto, not a concentration camp.
A ghetto? In what context is Gaza a ghetto? A ghetto is supposed to be an impoverished part of a city. Israel has caused that whole side of the country to be a locked down and short of resources; including the areas around the city.
I didn’t realize you were THE concentration camp expert. Perhaps I should go to you the next time I need a “proper definition” of what concentration camp and genocide is? My apologies.
For me, this sounds like you want to say something that sounds cool, rather than something you actually believe. It sounds driven by emotion rather than by rationality.
The lemmy community gives you upvotes, the historians would ask you WTF you are doing and send you an invitation to actually visit what has been such a concentration camp.
Just because it’s not a Nazi camp, doesn’t mean it isn’t a camp. European Jews don’t own the trademark on misery (even if they had misery in the recent past).
If you have this much time to argue about what is a concentration camp, you have time to answer these nonsensical questions yourself. Why does Israeli defense essentially start with:
We’ll actually guys technically…
Imagine if I said the Holocaust was not genocide because enough European Jews were left to start Israel (there were millions left). You would rightfully call me an idiot.
Their defense starts with “They attacked us, we are defending ourselves and that’s our right. And to ensure that this does not happen again, we need to get rid of the terror organization Hamas.”
I’m not a fan of how many civilians are getting killed.
On the other hand, keeping Hamas in power will ensure that this will go on forever and civilian on both sides will still be killed in decades with multiple 1-3-year gaps of pseudo-peace between.
Edit: just to be clear in case you are genuinely uninformed, a good starting point for understanding why shit goes down in Gaza right now and why Israel is wrong is as simple as reading the Wikipedia page for example. It did not start with October 7.
Agreed. However just so you understand, we have two different things here. One thing happened in the past and concluded. We got knowledge of it after the fact. It’s well documented and remembered.
The other one started happening right around the previous one concluded, and is happening right now. We have the awareness of it, but the beholders are largely powerless to stop it, while the powers that could stop it put more fuel on the fire instead or look the other way.
Edit: let’s also take OP’s opening statement apart. “As someone from Germany”. Okay? That makes them some sort of expert on the topic? Are they trying to appeal to authority? Or is this a form of gatekeeping, that if something is not as bad as the Holocaust was, then it can’t be bad or genocide?
Are they trying to appeal to authority? Or is this a form of gatekeeping, that if something is not as bad as the Holocaust was, then it can’t be bad or genocide?
We have heard the bullshit comparison over and over agin. Abbas made it before the attack started. This war… Call it bad, call it brutal, but don’t call it “holocaust” just to impress others or because it’s a fancy word or because it makes you feel betzer or for whatever reason…
The beginning of the ‘Final Solution’ was in June of 1941, and began with the death squads of the Einsatzgruppen murduring Jews as part of Operation Barbarossa.
Babi Yar happened on September 29th and 30th, 1941 - only about 4 months into the Final Solution. Germans put posters up in Kyiv, saying that any Jews who didn’t show up to be relocated would be shot. They took the crowd of 33k people to a ravine, herded them forwards and machine gunned them all down.
Is the Holocaust really the most apt historical comparison? Yes, the Holocaust is in the past, while this is ongoing. But the early days of the Holocaust were incredibly bloody; the massacres didn’t ramp up slowly once the killings commenced.
It is the most apt comparison, since the Holocaust mostly happened to jews, and now the descendants of them are doing what was done to them: ethnic cleansing.
Germany’s role as a moral shield for Israel’s genocide is the most disgusting part of this whole ordeal.
I’ve read about the Staatsräson with some bemusement. It seems that Germany’s lesson from the Holocaust is not that there should be no more genocide but that Zionist Jews can do whatever they want.
Germany is always on the wrong side of history it seems.
If you want Germany to atone for Nazism, give Israel your country rather than making the Palestinians pay for your crimes for the last 75 years.
If you want Germany to atone for Nazism, give Israel your country
Sounds fancy, but this is as realistic as a permanent peace with Gaza as long as it is controlled by the Hamas terrorists that have the main goal to destroy Israel.
Staatsräson
In Germany, the word is criticised, because of the “Interpretationsspielraum” (“wiggle room”).
but that Zionist Jews can do whatever they want.
There are multiple German politicians warning about a disaster in Rafah, about flooding tunnels with sea water, etc.
Acting like Germany is cheering “Well done, go on!!!” is far away from the truth.
Germany is always on the wrong side of history it seems.
Interesting, because Germany was and is kind of well aligned with the Western World for that last decades…
I don’t necessarily agree with every point from the previous poster, but saying Germany is in line with the western world isn’t exactly a defense because the western world hasn’t exactly been above reproach for the last 25 years. There is a lot of Muslim blood on several countries hands. I understand that you argued that the Palestinians struck first, but when you look at the overall death toll, it’s pretty clear that it isn’t the west getting slaughtered on a regular basis in the last decades.
I don’t necessarily agree with every point from the previous poster, but saying Germany is in line with the western world isn’t exactly a defense because the western world hasn’t exactly been above reproach for the last 25 years.
I did not see it as a defense… More like a “Maybe, you are on the wrong side, too”…
I understand that you argued that the Palestinians struck first, but when you look at the overall death toll, it’s pretty clear that it isn’t the west getting slaughtered on a regular basis in the last decades.
The numbers were always like that. Hamas kills X Israelis, Israel reacts and kill X * 10 Palestinians.
Thus, Hamas knew how bad the consequences of the latest massacre could be. I think, Hamas wanted all this. They wanted these pictures. They wanted to separate Israel and some Muslim-countries. One more reason to make sure, they lose power.
Whether they wanted it or not, they aren’t the ones personally pulling the trigger on Palestinians. The Israelis still have a choice about how they respond, and they’ve chosen utter annihilation. Just because you are baited doesn’t mean you have to take the bait.
A measured response. Tactical assimilation of the population until they are united. Education measures to show that historically they are the same people originating from the same region, and they can coexist together rather than enforce an apartheid.
Those are just a few alternatives to wholesale slaughter of an entire region, and Israel has the available resources to do it.
Israel cannot let Palestinians live as human beings because they out-number the Israelis. Giving then rights would give the Palestinians a majority in voting etc. So the Israeli’s opted to treat the Palestinians like sub humans. Treating an entire country as subhumans… For decades… has consequences.
Israel cannot let Palestinians live as human beings because they out-number the Israelis.
Is this even true? As far as I know, there are more people in Israel than people in Westbank + Gaza combined.
Giving then rights would give the Palestinians a majority in voting etc.
There are some common solution suggestions (2-state-solution or even 3-state-solution) which don’t require giving Palestinians rights in Israel, but rather rights in their own state(s).
So many Palestinians live outside of Palestine. Imagine if their homes haven’t been bulldozed over the last few decades or settlements haven’t been built around the last few “Palestinian towns.” They would have been able to flourish instead of this mess where they get to watch invaders destroy old villages.
Someone who wants to enter a debate about the semantics of camps and genocide should easily be able to find this info. How about a question for you? How many Palestinians exist in the whole world and how many have even bothered attacking a single Israeli despite decades of persecution; which may be unprecedented. Even Hitler’s hate did not last this long.
There are 2 million Palestinians that Israel is trying to push outside of Palestine or outright MURDER. If those monsters get there way, most Palestinians will now live outside Palestine. But people are over here questioning if Israel hasn’t been trying to get rid of Palestinian culture or traditions; like they do not have a giant death toll on their hands over THREE decades of time. Completely ignoring the fact that more and more houses in the West Bank are being stolen and given to foreigners simply because those foreigners are Jewish.
I asked whether you have also counted Israelis outside of Israel in your equation…
Why even ask this? Do you consider Palestinians and Israelis the same? Before Israel, 5% of the Palestinian population were Jewish [and most of those Jews were Russian immigrants, not “Sons of the land”]. Did some of these people move out or something? Seriously, what is the relevance here?
We all know that Israel did not even want to be there until Hamas butchered and kidnapped Israelis last year.
Also German here. If you haven’t yet acknowledged that the Israeli right-wing has been openly racist and fascist for decades now, committing war crimes left and right in the West Bank and in its overall treatment of Gaza (even without direct settlement) you’re acknowledging less than the foreign service. If you think that “Benjamin von Papen” or “Itamir Ben-Hitler” are off-base (as opposed to merely edgy) you know neither our own history, nor anything about the current state of Israeli politics.
Remember that what’s currently litigated before the ICJ is not “did Israel do bad stuff” but “Is Israel guilty of genocide, or merely extensive war crimes”.
The German foreign service has been stuck between a rock and a hard place when it comes to Israel for quite a while, now. “Israel has a right to exist, Jews have a right to a place they can legitimately call home and feel safe in” vs. “A fascist Israel is not a safe home for anyone, including Jews”. Language-wise they always emphasise the former while when you look at UN votes, aid spending etc. the emphasis is on the latter.
The difference to historical Germany is, pretty much, that constitutionally speaking Israel is still in the Weimar stage and somehow unlike Germany back then isn’t engaged in a right-out shooting war between civil society factions. Kahanites are way better at optics than the NSDAP ever was, knows how to spin things abroad, “bombing civilians is self-defence”. They also have a convenient fig-leaf in Palestinian fascists (Hamas), and vice versa. There’s going to be no security for Israelis without Palestinian freedom, and no Palestinian freedom without Israeli security, fascists simply aren’t interested in that they want to continue their eternal war, it’s where they derive their power from.
Also German here. If you haven’t yet acknowledged that the Israeli right-wing has been openly racist and fascist for decades now, committing war crimes left and right in the West Bank and in its overall treatment of Gaza (even without direct settlement) you’re acknowledging less than the foreign service.
Gaza is not West bank! I did not claim that Netanyahu does not want to control parts of the west bank area.
Remember that what’s currently litigated before the ICJ is not “did Israel do bad stuff” but “Is Israel guilty of genocide, or merely extensive war crimes”.
And they are more qualified to decide that than you or me or all the others here who use buzzword like “holocaust”, “concentration camp”, “genocide”, … like it’s their default vocabulary to build sentences.
There’s going to be no security for Israelis without Palestinian freedom, and no Palestinian freedom without Israeli security
I agree with that part.
And in my opinion, for Plastinian freedom and a secure Israel, Hamas must lose power, Netanyahu must lose power and 2 new government need to negotiate a 2-states-solution.
Gaza is not West bank! I did not claim that Netanyahu does not want to control parts of the west bank area.
Kahanites want all of the territories. Netanyahu (not strictly a Kahanite) wants all of the territories. Different policies do not imply different goals and that’s even presupposing that it’s different policies: The West Bank is getting cut up into small enclaves surrounded by settler-controlled regions, if that goes on just a bit longer then there’s going to be a thousand individual Gazas there.
And they are more qualified to decide that than you or me or all the others here who use buzzword like “holocaust”, “concentration camp”, “genocide”, … like it’s their default vocabulary to build sentences.
Possibly. But you shouldn’t be so pedantic as to not understand the meaning behind what people say, it might be different to what the same words would mean if they were to come out of your mouth.
The ICJ case isn’t looking good for Israel, though, given that they’re in gross violation of the preliminary injunction: That “Israel is required to let adequate humanitarian aid through” bullet point was a piece of rope and the war cabinet is hanging itself with it instead of climbing out of the hole they dug for themselves.
Hamas must lose power, Netanyahu must lose power and 2 new government need to negotiate a 2-states-solution.
Two states is getting less and less viable, the settlers have made sure of that. Maybe a one-state solution in the image of Belgium: Strong cultural and political independence but, very crucially, one army.
But you shouldn’t be so pedantic as to not understand the meaning behind what people say
Oh, I understand the meaning of holocaust and regarding “meaning”, I understand that people want to take the situation in Gaza and describe it as bad as possible… And then, they find the word “holocaust” and use it…
The problem: Most words have definitions. And if Lula says “it’s like the Holocaust”, he should expect that historians or maybe only random internet users look up the world “holocaust” and tell him that there are some huge differences. And that’s pretty much what I’m doing here.
Two states is getting less and less viable, the settlers have made sure of that. Maybe a one-state solution in the image of Belgium: Strong cultural and political independence but, very crucially, one army.
Let me make it even simpler. We are talking about N-state-solutions (N is some number) here. With Hamas (you know, those, who state that their main goal is to destroy Israel) in power, there is no chance for a permanent solution at all. I just hope that 1) Hamas loses power, followed by 2) Netanyahu losing power. This makes actual solutions possible.
And if Lula says “it’s like the Holocaust”, he should expect that historians or maybe only random internet users look up the world “holocaust” and tell him that there are some huge differences.
You can find huge differences between any two events if you look closely enough. How different things have to be to be “like” is not a constant and the man is Brazilian, not German.
I just hope that 1) Hamas loses power, followed by 2) Netanyahu losing power. This makes actual solutions possible.
I mean yes but at the very least you also need Israel to actually crack down on extremists, that Otzma Yehudit wasn’t immediate outlawed as a successor to the Kach party is not tenable, they really need to start treating Lebensraum rhetoric as essentially treason. Same goes for “they may live here but this is a Jewish state that means they don’t have the same rights” apartheid rhetoric from radical Settlers.
The extreme right don’t have that broad of a basis in each camp but, well, there’s a reason I called Netanyahu Benjamin von Papen. Hamas’ rule in Gaza has always been straight-up dictatorial. Media perception is also a huge issue: Many Palestinians don’t know the extent of what Hamas did because al Jazeera doesn’t want to show it and the IDF frankly speaking is known to lie without blushing, and the Israeli press is self-censoring, it’s always “our guys and gals on the front”, never, “here’s the civilians they just slaughtered”. Journalists know, journalists also know that noone wants to see it and people would just switch channels, now even less than before the 7th. In that light, let me make a Holocaust comparison as to what will be necessary for things to get better, excuse the poetic license: Israelis being forced at gun-point to look at Gaza’s ruins, “this is what you did by looking away”.
As someone from Germany, reading this makes me angry.
I don’t have the solution for this conflict, but when seeing the concentration camps in my country and understanding how much they must have hated Jews that they aimed to kill EVERYONE of them…
This is not the same! We all know that Israel did not even want to be there until Hamas butchered and kidnapped Israelis last year. Otherwise, they could have stayed there during the last invasion.
The holocaust comparison does not help anyone.
Edit: Very nice… Downvoting different views on this comparison without sharing arguments… Closing the door for discourse is always very useful!!!111 There is actually much we could agree on regarding this war, but yeah, go ahead and dislike me for not sharing your view that this is like the Holocaust. I’m from Germany where we visited tge remains of concentration camps twice during school time… What do I know…? :/
In case you haven’t noticed the blocade of Israel on Food, Water and Energy for Gaza (not to mention their destruction of hospitals in there) and Israel’s very own propaganda attack on the biggest humanitarian help organisation in Gaza - the UNWRA - which was without hesitation, disgracefully and shamefully used by countries such as Germany and the US to cut the very funding to the UNWRA that goes to keep Gazans alive, the Israeli Government is most definitely trying to starve Gazans to death, which is cheaper than using Zyklon B but the outcome is the same (it’s actually worse as starvation is a very painful and very slow way to die whilst Zyklon B was faster and painless).
It’s not a Nazi-level Holocaust yet but the Israeli government (along the nations “unwaveringly” supporting this genocide such as the US and Germany) are most definitelly trying hard to either mass murder Gazans (in many ways, from bombing them to destroying their healthcare facilities and starving them) or pushing them out using terror and starvation as weapons.
Just because the concentration camp in Palestine called Gaza doesn’t look like a bunch of sheds with old fashioned razor wire around it but instead looks like an overcrowded city with walls and patrols around it and Israeli gunboats patroling the coast, you haven’t yet seen hundreds of films made in Hollywood decrying it (and probably never will: notice how the biggest massacre ever, in Rwanda, has no fancy Hollywood movies reminding us of it), and the sharpshooters murdering women and chidren in it don’t zig heil each other, doesn’t mean this is not a modern version of the Holocaust in the making.
You stop the Holocaust before it becomes a proper Nazi-level mass murder of people due to their etnicity, you don’t just wait until it becomes “just like the Nazi Holocaust” all the while excusing your inaction with “it’s not quite like the Nazi Holocaust [yet]” only to turn around after it reaches Nazi-Holocaust levels and claim “there’s nothing we could’ve done”.
https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2022/02/israels-system-of-apartheid/
Where is the point where you mention that there is proof that multiple (at least 12, maybe more) UNWRA people have actually been involved in the massacre on Israel last year? Oh, you ignored that fact…
Reading this is disgusting.
It should be clear that the more people get killed there, the harder it is for Israel to get support from the Western world in the future. There is no reason to do what the Nazis did and “kill as much as possible of a specific group” here.
So, you think, it’s only a “Mini-holocaust”? Or a “10% holocaust”? I’d suggest not using the word if it does not fit.
To make this a more productive dialog: Given the fact that what happened can’t be undone: What would you suggest Israel to do now?
There is no proof!
“Israel says” is the entirety of the “proof” and anybody who activelly helps one side of the conflict starve the civilians of the other side based on nothing but the “word” of the side that’s doing the starving are cold calous biased sociopaths and if that bias is because of the etnicity of the people on those sides, that makes them cold, calous racist sociopaths, and that racist motivation is painfully obviously in this case for nations such as Germany and the US because for years their politicians have been harping on and on about Israel being a “Jewish Nation”, something wholly irrelevant for anybody but a racist.
I don’t suggest shit for Israel to do because they’re as out of control as the Nazis once were and will not do the right thing without being forced to do it (and they’ve became like that because of the unwavering support of large racist nations)
The fairest solution for that is the two state solution according to the borders set in the agreement that was done way back by Isaak Rabin and Arafat - the very same that Bibi totally undermined in his first time on government after one of his supporters murdered Isaak Rabin - and that has to be imposed on Israel by the rest of the World through massive sanctions and a blockade, and before that happens this racist sociopath shit of “unwavering” support because of the etnicity of its people for a nation committing massive atrocities against civilians of a different etnicity, has to stop.
Germany is siding with racist sociopath mass murders because of their race, AGAIN, and that, at least for me, it’s a huge dissapointment because thinking that any act, no matter how horrible and how driven by deep racism, is excusable because of the etnicity of those doing it, is the way of thinking that was used to underpin support for Nazism.
Come on… Do you really think that multiple governments are like “Ah, Israel says that, so it must be true. No need for further research. We cancel support for UNWRA now!!!”.
WTF am I reading there??? Is this a new hobby? Comparing everything with Nazi Germany? Let me guess… Netanyahu is as bad as Hitler? I’m sorry, but I don’t even want to read the rest of it… It’s too much of a buzzword bingo at this point…
I just want to tell you what I think is the “best” outcome at this point. And I think, the “best” outcome would be a permanent solution, not what we had before, because that led us to where we are now…
Steps:
There is no step 3 without step 1 and 2.
IMO, most of the other “solutions” (especially those that let Hamas in power) bring “peace” for a few years, but make sure that afterwards, this decade-long disaster continues for many more decades. This shit needs to end forever.
The US Administration admitted that their only source for the accusations about UNWRA employees in Gaza was “intelligence provided by Israel”, so clearly their decision was taken based entirelly on “we trust Israel” and then the usual suspects followed very quickly, all or almost all being the ones who always declared “unwavering” support for Israel (one could call them The Cohalition Of Racists since they’re also the ones that always harped about the whole “Jewish Nation” thing, a concern that only makes sense for racists), clearly motivated by something else than the conclusions of a proper, independent, investigation of the claims.
There was a permanent solution, then a far-right Israeli extremist murdered Isaak Rabin, then Bibi got elected by the majority of Israelis and promptly renegued on the permanent solution.
Renegotiating a 2-state solution is just a stalling strategy from the racists because they know everytime it was done in the past it just served to force the Palestinians to accept more of the status quo of land stollen by Israel in the meanwhile with their “colonates”, and was always eventually reneguede upon by Israel when it stopped being usefull and in order to capture more land.
More such negotiations now would just reward Israel for taking more land and killing more Palestinians since the last such negotiated “solution” (on which Israel as always renegued once it wasn’t useful for them anymore) and then proceeded to steal more land and kill more innocents, which is pretty rationale for Ukraine not accepting a peace settlement with Russia were they concede more land to Russia: there will never be permanent peace when the invader again and again steal lands, gets to keep the land they stole with a “negotiated solution” and then after consolidating once again does the same thing all over again taking even more land.
The only solution is to go back enough that Israel loses all it has stollen in the meanwhile and all the gains from stealling Palestinian land since the Far-Right got into power in Israel and started a systematic policy of stealing Palestinian land and killing any Palestinian that resisted it, and the only way to make sure any solution is permanent in the face of systematic Israeli lies and breaking of their own international commitments (“unwaveringly” protected by the members of the Cohalition Of Racists such as the US and Germany) is massive sanctions and a blocade until they comply and the same afterwards if they renegue on it in even the smallest of ways.
There cannot be a permanent solution without serious external punishment for breaking their commitment when the stronger side systematically renegues on it when they see fit with no consequences, steal more land and consolidate again afterwards by “negotiating” the next such “permanent” solution.
For decades Israel has shown itself to be even less trustworthy and more murderous than Russia (which must be some kind of record) and needs to be treated like you would treat any other such violent rogue nation.
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As for the Nazi comparisons, go take it with Bibi and his bunch of Fascists demanding a “final solution”, suggesting Gaza should be nuked, calling Palestinians very explicitly “human animals” and “violent” along with murdering more civilians, more journalists, more healthcare workers and more humanitarian workers in a short time frame than everybody but the Nazis (in some cases, more than everybody else ever, including the Nazis) - they’re the ones that in their Fascist Racist words and violent deeds have transcended (especially in terms of violence) every other genocidal Fascist regime in modern history but the Nazis.
Had they not broken all records except the one of the Nazis of racist violence by a state, everybody would still be comparing them to Appartheid South Africa, not to the Nazis.
Don’t want to be compared to the Nazis, don’t use their style of propaganda and their etnic cleansing deeds as inspiration.
Where is the source for that?
And what does source mean? If Israel sent video material that shows UNWRA employees murdering Israelis, that should be enough, right?
Nice… And this is exactly why this war continues… Because of shit in the past. But with that logic, there will be no end.
Who are the racists now? Are you actually classifying a whole nation as “racists”? That would be kind of… racist.
And now, let’s take a moment and ask, whether this is realistic… I’m not from Israel. I’m not from Gaza or the West Bank… But I can assure you that this is 1) not the only solution and 2) not really realistic. And I think, this is not actually the main wish of the people there. They are both sick of the never-ending war. That’s their main problem.
Comply with what? Retreating from Gaza, so that Hamas re-gathers power, so that this conflict can go on forever?
Let’s assume, it happens like that… Hamas (remember: they state that their main goal is to destroy Israel) builds new rockets, waits for 2 years and shoots them over the border again and kills a few hundred more people… What then? Don’t you see this never-ending cycle, that can’t be broken with Hamas in power?
Alright, the buzzword bingo begins again… No, thanks.
Gaza has been a concentration camp for a long time now.
No it hasn’t.
The concentration camps in the east, like Auschwitz, were almost exclusively extermination camps meant to wipe out whoever entered on an industrial scale. Gaza is not an extermination camp.
The “normal” concentration camps weren’t significantly better. Around 10% - 50% of inmates died, depending on the camp - be it from starvation, illness, medical experimentation or just live target practice.
Is every single Gazan enslaved and forced to build Israeli weapons and does Israel prevent Gazans from leaving under threat of collective punishment?
Gaza is the dictionary definition of a ghetto, not a concentration camp.
So what. What do you want me to say?: “Well OK, Hitler was better at making concentration camps.”
For the last few decades, getting aid into Gaza has been difficult. Isreal has refused to relinquish it as it’s own territory; even though it was obvious these people don’t want to be Isreali.
Isreal has Biden on speed dial; why do Gazan children need to build wepons for Isreal?
You are right. They got punished for staying on their land. The issue is you don’t understand why Palestinians are punished. Not being Jewish is NOT a crime. Speaking Arabic is not a crime. Imagine if you go tell the French, “All Roman Catholic Latin speakers need to go back to Rome.” Palestinians are a natural product of history. History did not stop in when Israel fell in 722 BC or when Judah fell in the 500s BC.
A ghetto? In what context is Gaza a ghetto? A ghetto is supposed to be an impoverished part of a city. Israel has caused that whole side of the country to be a locked down and short of resources; including the areas around the city.
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I didn’t realize you were THE concentration camp expert. Perhaps I should go to you the next time I need a “proper definition” of what concentration camp and genocide is? My apologies.
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For me, this sounds like you want to say something that sounds cool, rather than something you actually believe. It sounds driven by emotion rather than by rationality.
The lemmy community gives you upvotes, the historians would ask you WTF you are doing and send you an invitation to actually visit what has been such a concentration camp.
Just because it’s not a Nazi camp, doesn’t mean it isn’t a camp. European Jews don’t own the trademark on misery (even if they had misery in the recent past).
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internment_of_Japanese_Americans
It was called concentration camp above. That’s what I criticized.
If you have this much time to argue about what is a concentration camp, you have time to answer these nonsensical questions yourself. Why does Israeli defense essentially start with:
Imagine if I said the Holocaust was not genocide because enough European Jews were left to start Israel (there were millions left). You would rightfully call me an idiot.
Their defense starts with “They attacked us, we are defending ourselves and that’s our right. And to ensure that this does not happen again, we need to get rid of the terror organization Hamas.”
I’m not a fan of how many civilians are getting killed.
On the other hand, keeping Hamas in power will ensure that this will go on forever and civilian on both sides will still be killed in decades with multiple 1-3-year gaps of pseudo-peace between.
Why do the Palestinians who get kicked out of their homes not count. You ignore crimes.
AfD voter detected.
Edit: just to be clear in case you are genuinely uninformed, a good starting point for understanding why shit goes down in Gaza right now and why Israel is wrong is as simple as reading the Wikipedia page for example. It did not start with October 7.
This is not about a “different” point of view.
Two things can both be bad without being equally bad.
The war has been terrible. But do you really think it’s been as bad as Treblinka or Babi Yar?
Agreed. However just so you understand, we have two different things here. One thing happened in the past and concluded. We got knowledge of it after the fact. It’s well documented and remembered.
The other one started happening right around the previous one concluded, and is happening right now. We have the awareness of it, but the beholders are largely powerless to stop it, while the powers that could stop it put more fuel on the fire instead or look the other way.
Edit: let’s also take OP’s opening statement apart. “As someone from Germany”. Okay? That makes them some sort of expert on the topic? Are they trying to appeal to authority? Or is this a form of gatekeeping, that if something is not as bad as the Holocaust was, then it can’t be bad or genocide?
We have heard the bullshit comparison over and over agin. Abbas made it before the attack started. This war… Call it bad, call it brutal, but don’t call it “holocaust” just to impress others or because it’s a fancy word or because it makes you feel betzer or for whatever reason…
The beginning of the ‘Final Solution’ was in June of 1941, and began with the death squads of the Einsatzgruppen murduring Jews as part of Operation Barbarossa.
The commander of Einsatzkommando 3 submitted a fairly detailed report of his squad’s daily murder count by location. Through November 25th of that year, his squad alone murdered 57,338 Jewish men, 48,592 Jewish women, and 29,461 Jewish children.
Babi Yar happened on September 29th and 30th, 1941 - only about 4 months into the Final Solution. Germans put posters up in Kyiv, saying that any Jews who didn’t show up to be relocated would be shot. They took the crowd of 33k people to a ravine, herded them forwards and machine gunned them all down.
Is the Holocaust really the most apt historical comparison? Yes, the Holocaust is in the past, while this is ongoing. But the early days of the Holocaust were incredibly bloody; the massacres didn’t ramp up slowly once the killings commenced.
It is the most apt comparison, since the Holocaust mostly happened to jews, and now the descendants of them are doing what was done to them: ethnic cleansing.
Here is one more example why especially Germany does also not see “the time before” as a holocaust and thinks that the comparison is bullshit: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-66741336
Germany’s role as a moral shield for Israel’s genocide is the most disgusting part of this whole ordeal.
I’ve read about the Staatsräson with some bemusement. It seems that Germany’s lesson from the Holocaust is not that there should be no more genocide but that Zionist Jews can do whatever they want.
Germany is always on the wrong side of history it seems.
If you want Germany to atone for Nazism, give Israel your country rather than making the Palestinians pay for your crimes for the last 75 years.
Sounds fancy, but this is as realistic as a permanent peace with Gaza as long as it is controlled by the Hamas terrorists that have the main goal to destroy Israel.
In Germany, the word is criticised, because of the “Interpretationsspielraum” (“wiggle room”).
There are multiple German politicians warning about a disaster in Rafah, about flooding tunnels with sea water, etc. Acting like Germany is cheering “Well done, go on!!!” is far away from the truth.
Interesting, because Germany was and is kind of well aligned with the Western World for that last decades…
I don’t necessarily agree with every point from the previous poster, but saying Germany is in line with the western world isn’t exactly a defense because the western world hasn’t exactly been above reproach for the last 25 years. There is a lot of Muslim blood on several countries hands. I understand that you argued that the Palestinians struck first, but when you look at the overall death toll, it’s pretty clear that it isn’t the west getting slaughtered on a regular basis in the last decades.
I did not see it as a defense… More like a “Maybe, you are on the wrong side, too”…
The numbers were always like that. Hamas kills X Israelis, Israel reacts and kill X * 10 Palestinians.
Thus, Hamas knew how bad the consequences of the latest massacre could be. I think, Hamas wanted all this. They wanted these pictures. They wanted to separate Israel and some Muslim-countries. One more reason to make sure, they lose power.
Whether they wanted it or not, they aren’t the ones personally pulling the trigger on Palestinians. The Israelis still have a choice about how they respond, and they’ve chosen utter annihilation. Just because you are baited doesn’t mean you have to take the bait.
Sure. But what’s the alternative? Relaxing and waiting for the next attack?
Hamas’ primary goal is to destroy Israel. If they stay in power, there will be a next time…
A measured response. Tactical assimilation of the population until they are united. Education measures to show that historically they are the same people originating from the same region, and they can coexist together rather than enforce an apartheid.
Those are just a few alternatives to wholesale slaughter of an entire region, and Israel has the available resources to do it.
Coexistance with Palestinians: possible
Coexistance with Hamas, a terror organization that wants to destroy their neighbor: how is this possible?
Israel cannot let Palestinians live as human beings because they out-number the Israelis. Giving then rights would give the Palestinians a majority in voting etc. So the Israeli’s opted to treat the Palestinians like sub humans. Treating an entire country as subhumans… For decades… has consequences.
Is this even true? As far as I know, there are more people in Israel than people in Westbank + Gaza combined.
There are some common solution suggestions (2-state-solution or even 3-state-solution) which don’t require giving Palestinians rights in Israel, but rather rights in their own state(s).
So many Palestinians live outside of Palestine. Imagine if their homes haven’t been bulldozed over the last few decades or settlements haven’t been built around the last few “Palestinian towns.” They would have been able to flourish instead of this mess where they get to watch invaders destroy old villages.
And what about Israelis outside of Israel?
Just curious…
Do you have a source?
I’m not sure what you even mean.
I asked whether you have also counted Israelis outside of Israel in your equation…
And I asked whether you have a source that shows how many Palestinians live outside of the Palestine area… Would be interesting to know how many…
I’m not sure, why this deserves downvotes, but alright… I might have triggered some people with my general opinion…
Someone who wants to enter a debate about the semantics of camps and genocide should easily be able to find this info. How about a question for you? How many Palestinians exist in the whole world and how many have even bothered attacking a single Israeli despite decades of persecution; which may be unprecedented. Even Hitler’s hate did not last this long.
There are 2 million Palestinians that Israel is trying to push outside of Palestine or outright MURDER. If those monsters get there way, most Palestinians will now live outside Palestine. But people are over here questioning if Israel hasn’t been trying to get rid of Palestinian culture or traditions; like they do not have a giant death toll on their hands over THREE decades of time. Completely ignoring the fact that more and more houses in the West Bank are being stolen and given to foreigners simply because those foreigners are Jewish.
Why even ask this? Do you consider Palestinians and Israelis the same? Before Israel, 5% of the Palestinian population were Jewish [and most of those Jews were Russian immigrants, not “Sons of the land”]. Did some of these people move out or something? Seriously, what is the relevance here?
How is this relevant in this context?
I have just asked whether you have a source for your theory and explained why the holocaust comparison is bullshit. That’s it.
Scroll up. Because of “Israel cannot let Palestinians live as human beings because they out-number the Israelis.”
Can’t we have a normal conversation here without all this hate
History didn’t start on Oct 7th
And if Hamas stays the government of Gaza, we can be sure, that it won’t end in this decade.
Also German here. If you haven’t yet acknowledged that the Israeli right-wing has been openly racist and fascist for decades now, committing war crimes left and right in the West Bank and in its overall treatment of Gaza (even without direct settlement) you’re acknowledging less than the foreign service. If you think that “Benjamin von Papen” or “Itamir Ben-Hitler” are off-base (as opposed to merely edgy) you know neither our own history, nor anything about the current state of Israeli politics.
Remember that what’s currently litigated before the ICJ is not “did Israel do bad stuff” but “Is Israel guilty of genocide, or merely extensive war crimes”.
The German foreign service has been stuck between a rock and a hard place when it comes to Israel for quite a while, now. “Israel has a right to exist, Jews have a right to a place they can legitimately call home and feel safe in” vs. “A fascist Israel is not a safe home for anyone, including Jews”. Language-wise they always emphasise the former while when you look at UN votes, aid spending etc. the emphasis is on the latter.
The difference to historical Germany is, pretty much, that constitutionally speaking Israel is still in the Weimar stage and somehow unlike Germany back then isn’t engaged in a right-out shooting war between civil society factions. Kahanites are way better at optics than the NSDAP ever was, knows how to spin things abroad, “bombing civilians is self-defence”. They also have a convenient fig-leaf in Palestinian fascists (Hamas), and vice versa. There’s going to be no security for Israelis without Palestinian freedom, and no Palestinian freedom without Israeli security, fascists simply aren’t interested in that they want to continue their eternal war, it’s where they derive their power from.
Gaza is not West bank! I did not claim that Netanyahu does not want to control parts of the west bank area.
And they are more qualified to decide that than you or me or all the others here who use buzzword like “holocaust”, “concentration camp”, “genocide”, … like it’s their default vocabulary to build sentences.
I agree with that part.
And in my opinion, for Plastinian freedom and a secure Israel, Hamas must lose power, Netanyahu must lose power and 2 new government need to negotiate a 2-states-solution.
Kahanites want all of the territories. Netanyahu (not strictly a Kahanite) wants all of the territories. Different policies do not imply different goals and that’s even presupposing that it’s different policies: The West Bank is getting cut up into small enclaves surrounded by settler-controlled regions, if that goes on just a bit longer then there’s going to be a thousand individual Gazas there.
Possibly. But you shouldn’t be so pedantic as to not understand the meaning behind what people say, it might be different to what the same words would mean if they were to come out of your mouth.
The ICJ case isn’t looking good for Israel, though, given that they’re in gross violation of the preliminary injunction: That “Israel is required to let adequate humanitarian aid through” bullet point was a piece of rope and the war cabinet is hanging itself with it instead of climbing out of the hole they dug for themselves.
Two states is getting less and less viable, the settlers have made sure of that. Maybe a one-state solution in the image of Belgium: Strong cultural and political independence but, very crucially, one army.
Oh, I understand the meaning of holocaust and regarding “meaning”, I understand that people want to take the situation in Gaza and describe it as bad as possible… And then, they find the word “holocaust” and use it…
The problem: Most words have definitions. And if Lula says “it’s like the Holocaust”, he should expect that historians or maybe only random internet users look up the world “holocaust” and tell him that there are some huge differences. And that’s pretty much what I’m doing here.
Let me make it even simpler. We are talking about N-state-solutions (N is some number) here. With Hamas (you know, those, who state that their main goal is to destroy Israel) in power, there is no chance for a permanent solution at all. I just hope that 1) Hamas loses power, followed by 2) Netanyahu losing power. This makes actual solutions possible.
You can find huge differences between any two events if you look closely enough. How different things have to be to be “like” is not a constant and the man is Brazilian, not German.
I mean yes but at the very least you also need Israel to actually crack down on extremists, that Otzma Yehudit wasn’t immediate outlawed as a successor to the Kach party is not tenable, they really need to start treating Lebensraum rhetoric as essentially treason. Same goes for “they may live here but this is a Jewish state that means they don’t have the same rights” apartheid rhetoric from radical Settlers.
The extreme right don’t have that broad of a basis in each camp but, well, there’s a reason I called Netanyahu Benjamin von Papen. Hamas’ rule in Gaza has always been straight-up dictatorial. Media perception is also a huge issue: Many Palestinians don’t know the extent of what Hamas did because al Jazeera doesn’t want to show it and the IDF frankly speaking is known to lie without blushing, and the Israeli press is self-censoring, it’s always “our guys and gals on the front”, never, “here’s the civilians they just slaughtered”. Journalists know, journalists also know that noone wants to see it and people would just switch channels, now even less than before the 7th. In that light, let me make a Holocaust comparison as to what will be necessary for things to get better, excuse the poetic license: Israelis being forced at gun-point to look at Gaza’s ruins, “this is what you did by looking away”.