- cross-posted to:
- news@beehaw.org
- cross-posted to:
- news@beehaw.org
Donald Trump has said that Palestinians have “no alternative” but to leave Gaza due to the devastation left by Israel’s war on Hamas, in effect endorsing ethnic cleansing of the territory over the opposition of Palestinians and the neighbouring countries.
Speaking as he prepared to host Israel’s prime minister, Benjamin Netanyahu, on Tuesday, Trump repeated the suggestion that Gaza’s population should be relocated to Jordan and Egypt – something both countries have firmly rejected.
Trump claimed Palestinians would “love to leave Gaza”, telling reporters: “I would think that they would be thrilled.”
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This is completely fucking shocking. I hope all the Uncommitted folks are proud of themselves.
EtHnIc ClEaNsInG iS bEtTeR tHaN gEnOcIdE.
It’s different. Not “better”.
It is not different. They used genocide to ethnically cleanse Palestine.
Not different. The Clinton admin invented the term whole cloth in order to not have to get involved in Rwanda.
While your equivocate, people are literally dying.
But as long as you feel ok.
That’s literally been the last year and you felt fine the whole time.
Please, tell me more about how I feel.
Notice how all those bot accounts that were so active leading up to the election have completely vanished from the internet now? Yeah.
They’re still a few on .ml claiming Gaza/Palestinians are better under trump. Absolutely nothing will convince them otherwise
Not all people with bullshit opinions are bots. But I think the bots make those people think their opinions are more valid than they actually are, which causes them to be more active.
Agreed.
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notice how all the dnc drifters are now partying in Hawaii instead of fighting for their voters ?
The difference in the PoliticalCompassMeme subreddit is night and day. One of the few places you can still bully fascists without getting banned.
Why did anyone bring that shit hole here???
Because they were banned. Not everyone you disagree with is a bot.
Um… modlog is public. Where’s your evidence?
They’ll talk about the few who got legitimately banned for breaking to ToS and try to prove they’re being censored.
Cowbee got banned for misinfo, and aftwards had to provide sources for his arguments, even though you all are allowed to run your mouth without a single shred of evidence. Then when he asked for proff that his source was misinfo, he got banned
Edit: Cowbee wasn’t banned from this community
Linkerbaan was banned for making at worse snarky remarks. And I can see a bunch in this thread, although I know they aren’t gonna get removed
You can check the modlog on Linkerbaan and make your own judgement if it is justified or not.
Cowbee@lemmy.ml doesn’t have any mod action against them in this community.
Sorry I missread the modlog and thought he was banned from the site
Linkerbaan, cowbee and many more were banned from this community. Check the modlog.
Edit: Couldn’t you also just go check the so-called bots in the modlog? why tf does the burden of evidence lie on me?
Usually the one that makes the claim has to provide evidence, that’s kinda how it works.
@theunknownmuncher made the claim though
Because they were banned.
I didn’t make this claim, no
Because they would just be inactive rather than banned? You’re the one claiming that bans have occurred, which would be a major censorship issue for lemmy…
I’m sorry, but were the democrats stopping the thing?
Stop framing this like this is on the people who didn’t want the genocide to happen. It’s such a weird victory lap I see people here taking. Without fail.
News: something horrible has happened in Gaza.
a bunch of people on lemmy: I was so right.
You’re reading news about people being ethnically cleansed and you’re patting yourselves on the back. What in the fuck.
The establishment US and the ownership class are all-in on this genocide. We are exactly where we would’ve been if Kamala had won. They all support Israel. The democrats just had to do some surface level finger wagging because they knew they were relying on the votes of a bunch of people who see how genocide for what it is. They were lying to you and you’re acting like Israel and the Palestinians aren’t on the same exact path they would’ve been had Kamala won.
You all are sick for taking these horrible stories as some kind of victory. The ownership class is pitting you against republicans, and you against the people who didnt vote exactly like you did in an election. And why was that? Because the people you voted for were enabling a fucking genocide.
As was said elsewhere, history won’t be kind to Biden, trump, Kamala, and Netanyahu. But it won’t be kind to the people who were looking the other way to vote for the enablers.
We were handed a shit sandwich. We all had zero good choices. So some people decided they couldn’t bring themselves to vote for enablers of genocide. That isn’t an incorrect decision. Stop fighting the people who—I mean, I’m assuming(?) you don’t support the genocide…—want to see the genocide end. Because what could you possibly be getting out of that but all these back pats you’re giving yourself?
Oh fuck off. Kamala wouldn’t have been cheering for ethnic cleansing.
If you have two choices and one is less bad, you choose the less bad one.
Nah, she would have just continued to do it quietly, just like Biden did. You people are fucking monsters man. Absolutely no sympathy for the Palestinian people.
Ask a Palestinian how they feel about your sympathy
You do know that we also have internet and stuff right? None of us congratulates you for voting the Democrats. You people are sick for using us to bully people who didn’t vote for your party.
The genocide unfolded under the Biden administration and the ethnic cleansing and apartheid already happened under Trump, Obama, Bush, Clinton and whoever was before that. To us you are all the same. Trump is a horrible person and he’s saying the quiet part out loud, but that doesn’t make all the other politicians any better.
Sorry about all these people man. And I am so fucking sorry about what’s happening in your country. Been protesting it for 15 or so years now in Canada and it seems to have done fuck all. And you can’t even talk to liberals about it because they’ve gone totally mask off about caring about you guys. I don’t know what to say man.
Thanks for your kind words. It’s also shocking to me to see, but here we are. For now, the situation remains dire for us but the public opinion has changed in a way that I have never considered possible. Your protests may not have stopped the genocide, but there’s a whole new generation of people who are pro-Palestine now, all around the world. And to me that means a lot, even the people in Gaza have seen the student protests, it gives everyone hope.
I just really hope that we’ll have enough time left to change things. And from the protests myself I became more concerned with other issues as well, and I hope to spread that in my community.
Yup, all the bad shit was happening no matter who got in. So you chose between keeping the US running and having a chance for change or installing the 4th Reich and you chose the latter.
I am not American and I don’t live in the US. I am Palestinian so I chose nothing. I just had the questionable luck to be born in a place where Zionists wanted to build a colony.
Poster said ask a Palestinian and here I am. You chose what you believed was right for you. But don’t use me to justify that.
Ask a Palestinian in Gaza how they feel about Biden providing “Israel” enough explosives to kill a million people.
And not murdering our country and doing permanent long term damage…I’ll take the trade and hope people can work against it. Noone is going against it now. Morons.
Nobody was going against it before. What don’t you guys understand about this?
It wasn’t an issue at the top of the list of concerns. There were more important things. Single-issue bullshit.
That single issue is genocide you nazi fuck.
So that’s the difference? The fact that trump is saying it out loud?
So between a clearly labeled rat poison box, and one that says “probably not rat poison,” the right choice is the one that’s saying it’s not?
Because the genocide was in full swing when Biden was in office. They made some minor surface level pauses in specific types of bombs…and then started shipping them again. They cut the amount of weapons, and then upped it again.
I’m not saying trump is not worse. But you people are entirely missing the point if you think people who wouldn’t sign their names to a genocide are the ones in the wrong.
You all obviously missed the point further down my comment, where I said stop fighting people who want to end the genocide? Because, that’s what you want, right? If it is, you wouldn’t be doing what you’re doing.
Dude just stop. I’m going to hold my tongue…
Hold your tongue? This is a comment section. Say it.
I’m trying to have a nuanced discussion here. Because I think it’s important. If you think throwing insults or something (why else would you need to “hold your tongue?”) is your response, then do it.
I joined this discussion to make my point because I think we’re all (supposedly) on the same side. And I think there is good to be found in a discussion between people on the same side not seeing eye to eye at the moment. I think that driving a wedge in the anti genocide side of the fence (because this is either a pro-genocide or anti-genocide discussion…right?) is wrong. And I want people to stop doing it. And I think the reason they’re doing it is a very self-serving reason.
That’s not an attack of you all. It’s…an opinion. And, like I said, this is a comment section.
Nah I’m good, thanks.
On what? On how much better you think Bidens and Harris support to Israels genocide was? I would prefer you’ve stop rationalizing genocide.
There was far more than Gaza at stake. Clown.
Oh? Well that clears them of all guilt!
Buddy, we’re all impressed that you know what Gaza is (finally).
Oh, i see, you where always a bag of air. cool cool.
Stop framing this like this is on the people who didn’t want the genocide to happen. It’s such a weird victory lap I see people here taking. Without fail.
Our blue conservative “allies” want nothing to do with representing any of us. That’s why the way forward is pushing for electoral reform so the democrats will be forced to actually compete for our vote.
I get the feeling dems are so frail and fragile from using First-past-the-post voting as a crutch for so long that they wouldn’t be able to compete. They certainly can’t compete with the circus that is the republican party.
Fucking embarrassing.
Democrats know keeping 3rd parties from participating is a existential struggle for them. They are clearly willing to sacrifice the USA over giving up this hostage scenario.
Unelectable.
Choice was the status quo and pushing towards a solution or palestines almost immediate erasure to violent cheers. Nothing to do with being ‘right’, about hoping yous aren’t completely cooked and see sense. Just as far gone as MAGA unfortunately.
“My candidate was the right choice and you’re wrong. You’re basically maga.”
You have to see how insane that is.
I’m not saying trump isn’t worse. I’m saying if you people cared about the genocide, you wouldn’t be trying to throw anti-genocide people under the bus. You just wouldn’t. You would be working with them toward a solution.
The other powerless people aren’t your enemy. The ownership class that is committing and profiting off this genocide is. But you all are taking aim at the underclass because it gives you a high horse to ride.
That is wrong. That’s my point. But you all just doubled down in the face of that sentiment.
Whatever you have to tell yourself I guess, right?
I’m an anarchist dumbass I can just see the reality. Yous are as gone as maga. Victims of propaganda and acting against your own (and the palestines interests).
You aren’t anti-genocide. As we told you before the election, your outcome of your stance is pro genocide. And now the Palestinians have to pay the price for your stupidity.
That’s a depressingly binary outlook for an anarchist.
Are you sure you’re an anarchist? Because thinking that there was either the choice to vote for one party or “you’re brainwashed” just doesn’t exactly scream anarchist to me.
You’re overlooking my entire point to make a binary, deterministic point about only one decision being right in this scenario. You’re an anarchist telling people that f they didn’t vote for a political party complicit in a genocide, that they’re just as bad as the genocidal forces? There is legitimately no sense to be found in this.
I’m more of a Chomsky-esque anarchist myself when it comes to voting. And even I don’t see how you could make this claim. Under normal circumstances, I would be with you between trump and Kamala. But there is a fucking genocide happening, in the US’s pocket, and there were two pro genocide candidates on the ticket. Faulting the people against the genocide for the scenario being our reality, and not the people who wouldn’t break with the idea that the genocide was something to support? You’re not an anarchist, you’re a bootlicker.
You’re throwing the people who couldn’t stomach the fact that a genocide would’ve been done in their name had your candidate won under the bus? Not those who wouldn’t listen to the millions of people telling them they’re wrong and blindly kept supporting the slaughter? With historians and the world community and the activists screaming that we are witnessing a Nazi-esque ethnic cleansing, you’re not faulting the politicians who only see the opportunity for influence and government contracts?
You’re faulting…activists and peacemongers. For not voting for your candidate?
I just want to be sure I’m understanding your position here.
Don’t come at me with some binary explanation that “well the other side is worse,” I want you to do your best to shed that two party mentality to think about this in the larger picture, and then reaffirm your point for me, here.
Neo-proudhonian mutualist with a dash of agorist praxis via non-violent counter-economic ®evolution.
Changing the system by voting is not possible. The best we can do is pick the one closest aligned with our values, that will allow us to effectively organise (vs Trump turning the military on protestors/leftists), buy the Palestinians some time (vs literal cheering for ethnic clensing).
Faulting the people against the genocide for the scenario being our reality, and not the people who wouldn’t break with the idea that the genocide was something to support? You’re not an anarchist, you’re a bootlicker.
They’re statists and authoritarians—I don’t expect them to listen to reason, and I can’t change that. My criticism is directed at those who actively pushed for a worsening of the genocide by enabling that screwball to take power, rather than supporting actual anti-genocide leftists who understand that, flawed as it is, liberalism is still preferable to outright fascism. You should know better. Instead, you keep shifting between shill gambit, baseless accusations and bad-faith comparisons.
Chomsky also acknowledged pragmatic short-term engagement with existing structures (e.g., voting for the lesser evil) while aiming for long-term abolition of oppressive institutions, FYI.
In the 2016 and 2020 U.S. elections, he argued that it was morally imperative to vote for the Democratic candidate because the alternative would be worse for marginalized communities, climate policy, and global stability.
https://chomsky.info/an-eight-point-brief-for-lev-lesser-evil-voting
Conclusion: by dismissing a “lesser evil” electoral logic and thereby increasing the potential for Clinton’s defeat the left will undermine what should be at the core of what it claims to be attempting to achieve.
I appreciate what you’re trying to do but you’re dealing with Americans who are also trying to argue in bad faith. It’s not worth your energy.
I’m Scottish not American.
And bad faith how, this guy has based his identity around Chomsky who agrees with what I’m saying. He is arguing in bad faith ‘Are you sure you’re an anarchist?’ lol
By your logic if the democrats had won and the genocide had continued (which it absolutely would have) then you’d be pro genocide for voting democrat.
No that is your logic. You’d be pro-supporting-the-lesser-genocide. There’s no lesser option that is available beyond your choice. There is for someone who abstained, so their position actively supported exacerbating the genocide.
There are options that aren’t just voting you lazy ass coward.
The “uncommitted folks” had nothing at all to do with this. You should’ve been uncommitted in the primaries if you don’t actively support genocide. Who you vote for in the generals is a different matter, but are you seriously saying people who supported more progressive options over biden when there was literally no danger or downside to it are responsible for trump? Bc they committed the sin of empathy and supported palestine? Even if they still voted kamala?
no downside
effectively throwing your vote in the bin for a candidate that has zero chance of winning
make it make sense
Nothing is being thrown away in the primaries. Literally nothing anyone did there hurt biden. Voting uncommitted meant you got to let biden know you support palestine without hurting his chances in the generals
What? The people who didn’t vote for her and/or advocated others do the same on the basis that they’d be equally bad for palestine.
I think you replied to the wrong comment m’dude.
effectively throwing your vote in the bin for a candidate that has zero chance of winning
So Biden and Harris? What even is your argument here?
What primary?
Last winter/spring. The one Kamala didn’t win, because Biden was the one running.
80% of Israelis support ethnic cleansing of Gaza. If they actually attempt it, what makes you think Biden/Kamala would have tried to stop it?
I think the only difference is that Trump would cheer on the cleansing while Kamala would have tut tutted about it.
Kamala isn’t dead. She hasn’t fallen off the face of the Earth. Has she released any statement even now condemning the idea? She doesn’t even have to fear AIPAC anymore. She has nothing to lose in condemning the idea. If she won’t even release a statement condemning it now, what makes you think she would have lifted a finger to prevent it if she had been elected?
That was the whole point of the uncommitted movement. The only difference between Trump and Kamala’s Israel policy is that Trump vocally supports war crimes, while Kamala quietly supports them.
Ooh, a statement. Well that’s all she, or anyone else who supports Palestinians getting to stay alive and in their homes can do now. Everything we’re discussing on this thread has become pointless, because the side that wants Israel to take both Gaza and the West Bank and violently remove all the residents there now controls all branches of the federal government. It’s gonna happen, and we’ve run out of ways to stop it after this last election. You may as well demand your pet cat make a statement, it will have as much effect.
Ooh, a statement. Well that’s all she, or anyone else who supports Palestinians getting to stay alive and in their homes can do now.
What was she doing while running for president? She couldn’t give a proper statement even then, just weasel words that clearly still showed support for israel. Words are all democrats ever have while they continue to kneel to the oligarchy (or be part of the oligarchy themselves).
the side that wants Israel to take both Gaza and the West Bank and violently remove all the residents there
Funny that you think this sentiment is contained to only one of the two major parties in the US. Their actions speak otherwise.
Your vote is the only power you have. That means you should use it as effectively as possible. Which means you shouldn’t only use it on the ideologically pure, you also use it for people who are more in that direction than the alternative.
The result of this last election is someone who supports a Palestinian state lost, and someone who supports total Israeli domination won. Your takeaway that something else happened is rare and is not the takeaway of the media, the voters, or the parties. Palestine is now dead in American politics and support for Palestine in any form will now be seen as a liability, that is if any Palestinians are left after this term. Don’t shoot the messenger.
Your mistake is in thinking the parties are different in any meaningful way when it comes to israel. Our votes are powerless in the face of lobbying: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rlKmWa8p4UM
80% of Israelis support ethnic cleansing of Gaza. If they actually attempt it, what makes you think Biden/Kamala would have tried to stop it?
It’s fucked up that you think they aren’t attempting it right now, or for the past year and a half.
That would be even more damning for Kamala.
The point is that the people who were attacking Biden for his Israel policies were just Trump supporters (and literal bots) that were masquerading as passionate Israel supporter. They didn’t give a shit about who would be best for Palestine, they just wanted to get Trump elected.
We know this now by the silence from those people now. End game was achieved when Trump got elected.
Is there silence? I see plenty of comments routinely downvoted to Hell on this topic. People just downvote the dissenting voices and then pretend they don’t exist.
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Option one will do a bad thing (with chance of opposing)
Option two will do a bad thing and burn your house down and remove option 1 permanently.
Option 3 is an illusion that enables option 1
OOH, I CHOOSE 3 SO I CAN BE SPECIAL AND BLAMELESS. It didn’t do a bad thing!
Your fantasy world is super neat. Your killed the real one in the process of reaching for it because you don’t understand how anything works, so much for all that “did our own research”.
trump thanks you for your vote.
No options offered any opposition, to our oligarchs.
One sure as fuck was THE alternative to plutocratic christofacisim that is currently digging in like a tic.
Oh, you mean the other plutocratic candidate wellbeing on letting christofascism even take root?
Nope
I have heard your perspective before. It’s disingenuous framing and discounts all democratic power of the people to abandon parties that don’t serve them. It’s nothing but a form of trained self-subjugation for the masses that absolutely neuters any opposition to the ruling class.
It’s not.
ROFL
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The mods on Lemmy are not good. They help incite shouting matches at different communities for fun including ones that have the developers for Lemmy itself, let basic bait for profiling others exist because they proclaim to let the other side speak up if they wanted to after bashing them down.
They will turn around and unironically claim to be just janitors with no power while ignoring the very position of mod gives them a lead role in how discussions are held.Lemmy is just 4chan for neo liberals and the mods act like it.
For additional record. 100% of the moderation on this post was done by a singular mod. Most of it was “uncivil” (and I agree with those)… But a few dissenting opinions that were not uncivil nor provably “misinformation” were classified as such. I don’t necessarily even agree with your post, but I see nothing “misinformation” about it. I see legit concern over the system and an opinion based on observation of facts. Though I wouldn’t come to the same conclusion you did… it’s clear a certain mod is mad about it.
Mod is clearly drinking the Dem Kool-aid and is salty that you disagree with it. As clearly made obvious by the difference in responses on this thread… Top comment in the thread doesn’t get taken down… it targets and others “independents”, but your response and the other low effort meme that points out that on this specific issue dems and gop are functionally the same (in your opinions) is immediately smote.
It’s funny because I often disagree with a Dem stance… and immediately get labeled a Republican or even fascist… Which immediately shuts down 100% of any possible reasonable conversation that you could have. Same with these mods who just censor anything that remotely goes against what they believe in.
Yes, thank you. I can understand deleting like, flat-eartherism or something, but when your worldview is something you’ve really lazily assembled, and you disagree with somebody but don’t really have anything to disprove it, you belong nowhere near that delete button. I’m seriously disappointed to see this reddit mod behavior on Lemmy.
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Thank you for trying to speak the truth even if all these sour people refuse to listen.
Replace Independents with Democrats, and the same is still true.
…no
History will not be kind to either Netanyahu, or the Biden/Trump presidencies.
This will mean fuck all the to Palestinians who became “displaced persons” just so the Israeli’s can have their own Lebensraum.
The rest of the world needs to get off its ass and ensure Gaza is rebuilt on Israel’s shekel for the Palestinians like a modern day Marshall plan. And ideally prosecute a couple of people for actively advancing genocide.
The rest of the world needs to get off its ass and ensure Gaza is rebuilt on Israel’s shekel for the Palestinians like a modern day Marshall plan. And ideally prosecute a couple of people for actively advancing genocide.
Except remember, those are America’s shekels being spent.
I mean, we should also be paying. We had an integral role in the genocide.
Well, they keep vetoing things that would help. Like calling it a genocide…
This will mean fuck all the to Palestinians who became “displaced persons” just so the Israeli’s can have their own Lebensraum.
Does Lebensraum mean to have the safety of not to get attacked by your neighbors? I’m not justifying this plan but to say that was Israel wanted this all along when they disengaged in 2005 and didn’t start the war is a bit out there
An awful lot can change in twenty years.
What has happened in the last twenty years
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I’m sure the Palestinians are grateful the Democrats didn’t win.
But they didn’t promise to stop it, so voting for fascism was the only alternative!
Have more alternatives in the voting booth by passing state level electoral reform! Then people could vote for who they want and still have their vote count against the Republicans.
Who could possibly say no to having more then one chance to beat the Republicans?
Yeah, fair voting is over in the US. You can’t remove fascism at the voting booth.
The 40k+ dead under a dem president probably don’t care one way or the other.
I’m sorry to disappoint you but we are unhappy with both parties. Biden is an absolute devil for allowing this genocide to unfold and providing both weapons and rhetorical and political support. Trump is an absolute devil too, the difference is that he’s absolutely unhinged and says the quiet part out loud.
I feel sorry for the domestical issues this is causing you now and the general chaos this guy creates but for us Palestinians Democrats and Republicans aren’t much different in their support for Zionism.
Typical first world sheltered westoid.
Palestinians on the ground are being starved, bombed and shot at. You think they give a shit about american elections, idiot? Go outside.
What would a Democratic win have changed here? Have you already forgotten then 15 previous months where Democrats were sending Israel cash, jets, 2,000lb bombs, arms, and every other tool they needed to continue their genocide?
NO FACTS ALLOWED! ONLY HATE FOR THIRD PARTIES!
I’m half convinced that these are just bots here to drum up infighting as any post mentioning Israel seems to get flooded with these comments, and almost none of the commenters ever respond to replies.
Oh, they respond. Turns into days long flame war if you don’t just stop responding yourself. Still bots afaict though, either that or extremely confident idiots.
Frankly I doubt they give a fuck, this was the outcome for them either way.
What evidence do you have that Kamala would have opposed this idea as president? Has she released any recent statement condemning the idea? It’s actually a lot easier for her to do so now than it would have been with her as president. She’s a private citizen now; she need not fear AIPAC campaign dollars. She need not fear offending Biden. She’s not lifting a finger to condemn the idea now, when she faces zero downside in doing so. What makes you think she would have opposed it as president?
Sure, Trump is a lot more vocal in his support of ethnic cleansing than Kamala would have been. But I think Kamala would have simply looked the other way and refused to intervene if Israel attempted it. I see zero indication in her actual behavior that she would have intervened if she was currently president.
If the end result is the same I would certainly rather have non-fascist fucks in office
And that’s why you lost. As long as you’re ready to throw foreigners under the bus you will just be seen as the scum you are.
That’s
Why
You
Exercise
Democratic
Power
To
Get
Rid
Of
All
Of
Them
Biden literally sanctioned them just for settling, Trump reversed it.
Of course this wouldn’t have happened under Kamala. It may have dragged on for a bit, but they delayed the ceasefire until Trump got in, if he lost - they were down bad in an increasingly worsening PR situation and were somewhat tied to that. Now they don’t care, look at them. Probably launch gaza baby NFTs and pocket the profits too just for kicks.
Straight into the west bank as Adelson paid $100m for the privlege, and now celebrating an ethnic clensing. There won’t be a palestine at the end of this term.
Don’t waste your breath, these people don’t even know what the West Bank is
How many people did Biden sanction? List the names.
Do you understand why we keep saying everything Biden “did to help” was symbolic and completely worthless? That he did those things while vetoing ceasefires at the UN and sending tens of billions of dollars in bombs for them to commit mass murder with? That this is the behavior of an actual psychopath who’s complicit in genocide?
The sooner you all stop running from reality, the sooner we can start fixing this.
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You seem not to realise the way to "fixing this’ is through a political process and you fuckers are locked in for 4 years of a dude who doesn’t know what shame it’s.
4 years
that’s very optimistic
Are you seriously saying people who got bombed for a year that their only option is through a “political process”.
Lmao if I was palestinian I would only want to bomb new york.
The political process enables it.
So…. Are both sides still the same? Asking for a friend.
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Put the rhetoric aside, and the answer is yes. Israel stole a lot of land from Palestinians under both Democratic and Republican presidents and kept them under an oppressive apartheid system depriving them of their rights. Both parties vetoed UN resolutions to stop or even condemn the practice.
The Israeli government proposed annexing the West Bank in violation of international law, and while one president said he disagreed with the idea, he said he’d back Israel if they did. The other one said he’d support the idea and back Israel either way. Putting aside the rhetoric or intentions, the action is the same. That’s why Palestinians aren’t cheering when one party wins over another in US elections, because they saw what happened when republicans or democrats won; their situation didn’t change. If you feel otherwise, go visit and talk to them like I did.
It was a rhetorical question. The answer is demonstrably no.
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Alright. So let’s assume for the moment that you’re right, and both parties would do exactly the same thing regarding Palestine. Just for the sake of argument.
Then they’re still not the same.
Would Kamala have handed entire departments of the U.S. government over to Musk? Would Kamala have signed a bazillion EO’s, taking away people’s rights? Would Kamala send thousands of people to Guantanamo? Would she have allowed ICE to raid schools or hospitals? Would she be systematically erasing transgender people from public life? Would Kamala be scrubbing databases and removing information (CDC for example), or making people waste time to delete certain terms from every database and website because of “woke” or “DEI”? Would Kamala have taken the U.S. out of the WHO? Or the Paris Agreement? Would Kamala be threatening to annex Greenland? Or start trade wars with allies? Or do petty shit like removing the option for regular Americans to file taxes for free online? Or pardon 1500+ violent idiots, at least 4 of whom have already been commiting new (and running from old) crimes? Would she install an antivaxer, who also promotes raw milk, to Health and Human Services? Or abolish the Department of Education?
Would she, would she, would she?
They. are. not. the. same.
And you repeating the same tired bullshit over and over and over will not suddenly make it true. You can try to convince yourself that what you did was the morally right thing, but in your own words: put aside the rhetoric and intentions. The consequences are on you.
But anyway, we both know that Kamala would not be the same regarding Gaza. Never would she have said she wants to “take over Gaza” and “own it” and to turn it into the “Riviera of the Middle East” to create “thousands of jobs.” She would never have proposed the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians.
Don’t get me wrong. I don’t think she would have done anything to actually help Palestinians, aside from some symbolic stuff or vague threats she will never act on. Somehow Americans seem to just love Israel, whatever horrific shit they pull, they’ll always side with Israel.
But “both sides are the same” is a blatant fucking lie.
This is a disingenuous argument. Republicans and Democrats are not the same EXCEPT ON PALESTINE. You’re beating a strawman.
The rest of it is arguments over rhetoric. Put the comments by Trump aside; in actuality if Netanyahu annexed West Bank or mass deported Gazans, Kamala and Trump would both continue to support Netanyahu financially and militarily even if they had different press releases ranging from concern to praise. Kamala refused to promise to enforce the Leahy Law and Trump isn’t either.
It’s not a strawman, it’s the truth.
Trump is orders of magnitude worse regarding pretty much everything, so even if Kamala is ‘the same’ on Palestine, all the other stuff would still be better with her in stead of Trump. If you truly believe they are the same regarding Palestine, then they basically cancel each other out, right? Then you should look at everything else and it’s quite obvious they are not the same at all.
Look, I don’t want to be the person who needs to boil things down to simple math. But don’t you think that “Fuck Palestine” is better than “Fuck Palestine. And transgender people. And women. And the environment. And the Department of Education. And migrants, and and and”?
Tell me, how is one not worse than the other?
You’re still strawmanning, because it’s no secret that Harris was better than Trump on literally every issue except Palestine. I admitted it above and you gloss over that so you can repeat the same thing as if you’re not listening. Trump is doing all the horrible things he promised he would do. You’re trying to blame me for this even though I wanted Trump to lose too. Peace.
Edit: you’re still ignoring what I said and trying to talk past me. Blame Kamala for deciding she would rather sacrifice votes and risk her own election than say anything against Israel. That’s on her and not the voters. She couldn’t even call for a ceasefire but Trump did. That should tell you how bad Kamala was blowing it. And we’re not quiet, the Palestinians are still suffering but now that the election is over you and the Democratic leaders decided to ignore us because you never cared. I’m not gloating because we knew this would end badly and spent over a year trying to warn the Democrats, meanwhile so many “liberals” are trying to rub it in our faces as if they weren’t the ones who lost.
No, what I am trying to point out is that all the people who kept repeating the “both sides”-bullshit actually HELPED Trump win. Repeat something often enough and idiots will believe it. I have no actual statistics about this, but I wonder, how many people eventually stayed home because they thought both sides are the same and voting wouldn’t matter anyway? How many people just sorta protest-voted Trump because they believed it wouldn’t make a difference anyway? How many people actually switched to third party voting because they initially wanted to, and it wouldn’t make a difference anyway?
Perpetuating this idea that Kamala was the same helped Trump win. It was repeated by certain people ad nauseam how Trump and Kamala were the same. How you shouldn’t vote for democrats because it would be voting for genocide. If they were the same, you’d end up with genocide either way, so then vote for the one who’s better on every other topic, no? But no, that’s not what they said. It was an intentional campaign to make people not vote for Kamala, either by staying home or voting Trump. Every single thread was full of “both sides”-trolls and 99% of those have mysteriously disappeared since Trump won. I mean, it’s logical, their work was done, right?
Both sides aren’t exactly the same, but why don’t you want more differences?
Sides could be irrelevant of we replaced First-past-the-post voting with a more representative electoral system. The solution is more democracy, not gleefully telling people they have no choice but to vote for your preference.
Videos on Electoral Reform
First Past The Post voting (What most states use now)
Videos on alternative electoral systems we can try out.
We know.
But that wasn’t the point, was it?
Yes, they’re doubling-down.
In 1940, the Nazis’ plan was to relocate all Jews to Madagascar.
Just 2 years later, they started exterminating them systematically.Hey at least the genocide will be over! Trump is so much better than Kamala on this!
Exactly you: https://youtu.be/GcNPymD8wlM?t=54
Thank God there’s finally a solution
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Rofl. Biden/Harris trying everything they could to circumvent the blockade to get supplies into Gaza. Trump literally saying he wants to expel the remaining Palestinians and take their land for himself.
You will never admit you were wrong. You will go to your deathbed self assured with yourself that you never compromised on your ideals no matter what actually happens to Gazian Palestinians.
If it wasn’t abundantly obvious to the rest of ya’ll before, these soapbox “never genocide” bad actors never gave a single shit about what happens Palestinians.
Check their comment History. They’re not here in good faith at all. Just call them out and move on, but they don’t deserve a debate on this.
Biden/Harris trying everything they could to circumvent the blockade to get supplies into Gaza
What a bold lie. Biden vetoed UN votes to stop the blockade. He defended the Israeli military shooting unarmed Palestinians who approached the blockade and approved of Israel blocking the investigations of the deaths of NGO workers.
You could argue Biden was more in favor of peace than Trump is, but in practice he didn’t differ from Trump’s previous term on Israel. His record is clear.
The US built a whole temporary harbor to deliver aid to Gaza.
The whole point of that temporary pier was because Biden was unwilling to pressure Netanyahu to open any of the gates into Gaza, so sea deliveries was a way around him. It delayed aid for months, and it was eventually destroyed in a storm. And then Biden let Israeli military use it for raids and it then became a military target.
It was a failure. A policy failure through and through.
During the time of his he pier, trucks were also getting in from other entrypoints. Israel even constructed and opened new ones.
The problem with aid availability was mostly related to challenges with distribution inside Gaza.
The pier had the same issue. Aid was piling up next to it, but distribution further into Gaza was slow.
That’s simply false, and literally every aid organization and the UN and international press said otherwise. Long lines of hundreds of trucks were not allowed to enter Gaza by the Israeli military, I saw the videos and interviews of the drivers, even Biden admitted it was because Netanyahu refused to allow trucks in and not because of logistics inside Gaza itself. It was part of Netanyahu’s attempt to starve the population both to please the rightwingers in his coalition and to pressure Hamas into surrendering.
Who do you think is paying for the blockade?
Trying everything except:
- not sending weapons
- supporting UN actions to stop it
- sending peacekeeping forces
- sending relief supplies
- not supporting a rogue nuclear nation
- financial embargo on Israel
sending peacekeeping forces
Is Trump‘s Plan.
No, he plans to send a unilateral conquering and occupation force.
There is a difference.
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Rofl
Red flag number one, laughing about genocide.
Biden/Harris trying everything they could to circumvent the blockade to get supplies into Gaza
Except applying diplomatic pressure, Except taking military assets and delivering the supplies (besides the stupid symbolic airdrops that didn’t even come close to meeting requirements and killed a bunch of people). Except stopping arming, or even threatening to stop arming, the military that was blocking those supplies - in contravention of international and US law. Except Antony Blinken literally falsifying reports to Congress about “Israel” blocking supplies, because that would legally implicate the Biden administration for continuing to arm them.
Trump literally saying he wants to expel
“Saying”. That’s the problem with you. All you hear is words. You don’t read bills. You don’t look at arms shipments. You don’t read the history. You look at headlines.
What did i just say?
“This genocide started under Biden, with his support, and is continuing under Trump, with his support.”
They absolutely obliterated Gaza with Biden-supplied bombs while he sat there with his hands over his eyes going, “I don’t see anything wrong!” And then after two weeks in office, Trump goes, “oh my god, it’s totally destroyed! We’d better ethnically cleanse them.” while literally sitting next to Netanyahu. And in your brilliant brain, you don’t see the plan at work here.
If it wasn’t abundantly obvious to the rest of ya’ll before, these soapbox “never genocide” bad actors never gave a single shit about what happens Palestinians.
You are the one laughing in a message about their genocide. Look at my message. Do I sound like I’m fucking laughing?
You should be ashamed of yourself.
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Engage with honesty and integrity and compassion, or stop fucking responding to my comments.
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applying diplomatic pressure
US diplomatic pressure delayed the Rafah offensive by several weeks. And there were many other things as well.
US diplomatic pressure delayed the Rafah offensive by several weeks. And there were many other things as well.
First - provide any real proof of this.
Second - Rafah is completely destroyed. Biden administration described it as a “red line” along with the weasel words “major operation”, and then walked it back after it was completely destroyed, saying the “red line” had not been crossed, despite Rafah having been completely destroyed. With the bombs they provided.
The U.S. is a military superpower. “Israel” is not. Actual diplomatic pressure applied would have ended the genocide - period. Your comment just screams to me how little research you’ve done on the genocide.
provide any real proof of this
https://www.wsj.com/world/middle-east/how-israel-avoided-bidens-red-line-ad715144
For obvious reasons, I don’t have transcripts of secret diplomatic meetings.
saying the “red line” had not been crossed, despite Rafah having been completely destroyed
Yes, because the civilians had more time to leave because of US pressure.
would have ended the genocide
The ICJ ordered Israel to take measures that ensure there won’t be a genocide.
It’s a brutal war in in a dense urban environment against a deeply entrenched enemy hiding behind civilians.
For obvious reasons, I don’t have transcripts of secret diplomatic meetings.
OK, so in other words, no proof except the say-so of the involved parties. Which demonstrably was not enough to stop Rafah from being flattened.
Yes, because the civilians had more time to leave because of US pressure.
Also known as “ethnic cleansing”. You’re aware the civilians did not want to leave?
The ICJ ordered Israel to take measures that ensure there won’t be a genocide.
And they didn’t. They didn’t even hand in the mandated report after… 1 month? That was a year ago now.
It’s a brutal war in in a dense urban environment against a deeply entrenched enemy hiding behind civilians.
We really arguing the Zionist talking points now? This how far this site has sunk?
“Human shields” argument also completely unsubstantiated, and visibly used as an excuse to demolish all civilian infrastructure. ~40k Hamas fighters, Hamas not even removed from power, after 1.5 years where hundreds of thousands of civilians have been killed and the entire Gaza Strip has been completely flattened. And hundreds of openly genocidal statements from “Israeli” politicians, no less! My god, to actually fucking ignore those.
I’m not responding to this guy again. Assuming he’s gonna keep going. What he’s posting is literal genocidal incitement.
ROFL
Bro it isn’t worth it. I respect what you are trying to do, but Lemmy is an echo chamber on these things. You are completely right in what you are saying, but you’re wasting your time commenting here.
Clearly, if Kamala had won she would have personally resurrected every dead Palestinian and single-handedly repaired all the infrastructure. Let’s conveniently ignore that she was Vice President in an administration that circumvented Congress multiple times to deliver arms with less oversight, that (almost) every US elected official has vocally supported Israel’s actions for 70+ years, and that Kamala herself committed to nothing of substance on the topic.
Wow… this is almost every logical fallacy rolled into one comment.
Bravo!
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Jesus fuck you really think it was MSM libs that opposed you here.
Anarchist, know more than you, and it was completely evident this would happen which is objectively worse. Stop the cope.
Aaaah. Now you want to work together. Imagine that! When we asked you all to help keep this from happening, we were told to take our genocide supporting asses and go fuck ourselves.
Now, you’re wanting to play nice? Naaah. I’m calm as a stone too when I tell you that if you didn’t vote, or protested with a bullshit third party loser, you did this.
And we deserve to be angry about it.
Aaaah. Now you want to work together. Imagine that! When we asked you all to help keep this from happening, we were told to take our genocide supporting asses and go fuck ourselves.
I wasn’t on Lemmy since ~late 23 until after the election. Who is “you”? It’s not me.
My specific quotes at the time looked a lot like what I just wrote. Pointing out that the power of the people is in choosing their own candidates, not being handed them by the media and party apparatuses. That the two parties are visibly cooperating on genocide and that the only meaningful course of action is for the people to overthrow them.
I’m sorry, did someone else just say this?
Get your shit together so we can actually fix this.
That not you pretending there’s a “we” here? Because again, if you voted third party, or stayed home- you are openly admitting that you know nothing about the threat we faced, about how elections actually work, and about what the word “we” means.
There is no we that I am a part of that includes you. We tried to stop this. YOU didn’t.
You didn’t try to stop shit. You watched a genocide and voted for the same people committing it, because the only thing that mattered to you was your own ass. You weaponize marginalized people to act like you’re the hero of the story, but you only care about yourself. People who care about justice and have their entire lives know damn well that the entire system needs to be replaced.
Our only chance is unity. Even if I fucking hate people like you. That’s always been the case. That’s been the only chance out of a system where even the “opposition” supports genocide for our entire lives. Whether it’s 2024, or 2028, or picking up the rubble in 2032. But you know what destroys unity? PEOPLE WHO FOLD INTO THE SYSTEM AND DESTROY OUR UNITED FRONT AGAINST OUR OPPRESSORS.
I didn’t vote for a single person that committed genocide, so stop with the false accusations and… answer this:
Did you stay home when the rest of us voted to stop trump? It’s a simple yes or no.
And you’ve no place to speak of unity when you stood against everyone that stood against trump.
No, it’s unity AGAINST mass murderers. Not unity SUPPORTING them. Even if there’s two of them and one of them is 5% worse!
And I can already hear it. “You only had two choices!” Then I reject your stupid fucking choices.
It’s crazy how easy trump and his buddy netanyahu played you guys in a way that it benefited him. The American left completely splintered into subgroups that all hated each other and nobody was good enough to be an ally. If you were slightly right or even left of their firm views, your help wasn’t wanted. Just a bunch of left leaning voters slinging shit at each other and NOT voting. Meanwhile the right was unified and laughing at you guys, way to go. You shot yourself in the foot and call it a win cause you got blood on the democrats.
The same democrats you are now demanding should save you from all this shit you guys enabled.
Sincerely, a Canadian.
Honestly thank you for being here and writing this. The “but Kamala” comments are super hurtful to me because I remember how the Americans have been treating us ever since. My entire family is displaced from Palestine, had to abandon studies in Syria, Iraq back in the day, had to flee again from Kuwait, my friends and acquaintances together have lost hundreds of family members. We have lost family members and ongoing trauma from having lived under occupation. It’s unbearable and you can’t even do therapy because it’s still going on, you can’t get closure.
I don’t know a single Palestinian out there who hasn’t lost family or friends, or who has family or friends who moved abroad for good.
We’ve been suffering from ethnic cleansing, apartheid, collective gaslighting since 1948 and we’ve been facing violence and terror since even much longer. As if it would make a difference to us if the person who’s literally providing the means to annihilate us is saying nice words while doing the opposite? Trump is escalating our annihilation and we never doubted that, but the Gaza genocide alone has been going on for almost 1.5 years and there was no Trump.
Many people here really don’t seem to care about the actual people. The same way we aren’t human to Trump & the Zionists, I don’t feel human when Harris supporters use Palestinians to say “I told you so”.
Some of you all are just in full freakout mode these past two weeks. I’m calm as stone. Know why?
Because none of Trump’s executive orders personally affect you or anyone you love. Must be nice.
Unfortunately it’s not that way for everyone. Many of us are trying to figure out how to survive the next four years without dying to a preventive illness or ending up in a concentration camp, so I’m not sorry if us “freaking out” offends you.
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No, because I have decades of trauma that you people are just beginning to feel.
As I went on to explain in my comment, which for some reason you felt the need to just selectively quote and then reframe in some completely bullshit way.
Oh, so now it’s “get the fuck over it”? Both sides are totally the same!
I don’t think so, bebe. You motherfuckers will NEVER be permitted to live this down. This is YOUR fault. We will make you choke on it.
Not even fucking remotely what I said.
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I’m calling it, this era will be worse than the bush era when it comes to American atrocities.
What the fuuuck, the United States of America is going to own a part of the Gaza Strip. Are we restarting colonialism?!
Do you think places like Puerto Rico and American Samoa are states or colonies? Do you think they get good political representation? It never ended lol
American colonialism and imperialism never ended.
As if Israel would let the US take what it (wrongly) considers theirs.
In fairness, this is BS. A leaked Israeli paper from early 2024 stated that that IDF and the Israeli’s government overall goal WAS to remove all people from Gaza. Once and for all, if they could get away with it. The fact they systematically destroyed whole towns and places of culture educates us and reinforces that this was the plan all along. Trump is an Israeli puppet, nothing changes there, but the removal of people and the destruction of Gaza was the Israeli plan all along. This was known.
It is THEIR land. Their home. Why should they be shipped anywhere? That is an outright crime.
Accelerationism has made things worse for everyone. Now we have a US president who has declared his intention to ethnically cleanse the Gaza Strip of Palestinians. If you want things to get better then you have to act in a way that is useful to that end. That means voting for parties that are to the left of fascists and that have a chance of winning. In the US, that’s the Democrats.
Americans making this about Trump vs Kamala is getting really really annoying. I mean, we get it, you are pissed off at each other. We’ve read the same arguments dozens of times already, and at this point it is getting extremely tired. It sucks the oxygen out of every conversation. Is this what the discourse is going to be around Palestine and Israel the next four years?
Well, maybe Israelis should leave Palestinians country instead.
Yes, I’m sure this would all be very sad for Palestinians but the important thing is that Genocide Joe learned his lesson.
Geez americans are stupid
I’d ask protest voters if they’re feeling pretty stupid right now, but the truth is they never gave a flying fuck about Palestinians. They only cared about feeling morally superior.
Trash humans.
