There better not be one fucking democrat that doesn’t vote in the midterms and the presidential election in '28.
- There is a material difference between the Democrats and Republicans that’s worth observing. Dems are merely corrupt politicians: the Republicans are Xtian extremist white-nationalist fascists.
- It is vanishingly unlikely that a 3rd party candidate can win in 99% of the elections. Most successful independent politicians became independent after they were first elected, and win as incumbents.
- Not voting for the viable candidate running against the fascist GOP, because that candidate is not as $SOMETHING as you want them to be, is simply demonstrating privilege, that you are insulated enough from the effects of the fascist regime that you’re not personally harmed by the fascists winning. Vote like defeating the fascists is the only objective.
My voting flow chart is socialists, then democrats, then nobody.
Imo, we can fight over what shade of blue after the pedos are out of office.
This right here. And it goes for centrist dems too. If a progressive is the candidate on the ticket, vote for them. Don’t let the pedophiles win this one
Seems notable that we don’t have a headline with Joe Biden or whoever urging moderates to vote Democratic
It’s not this headline, but I’m sure he has. Either he has or he’s been told that saying anything may drive people away instead, so he’s staying silent. Obama frequently does say this.
That might have more to do with the senile and dying thing. Or he might’ve said it already. He probably did but I’m too lazy to check.
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Yes. The centrist ass dem I voted for veto’d a pro union bill. I would still vote for her over the alternative.
My primary votes are all left though.
except Fetterman, fuck that guy
Turning in a ballot with an empty selection is exactly the way to send the “voting for nobody” message that non-voters convince themselves they are sending, rather than the “you don’t need to care about my opinion on the issues because I don’t vote” message that it actually sends.
I cannot tell you how many sanctimonious jackasses I’ve met in my life that think their non-action is “sending a message”.
Staying home or doing performative nonsense like not selecting a candidate or voting third party is basically non-action, and virtually no one sees the message or cares.
I thought it rather silly when I was still in university and hearing it from peers. These days, when someone my age tells me they have been doing this for decades I usually ask him them who has gotten their “message” and what was done about it?
We’ve tried nothing and we’re out of ideas!
that’s how i feel about the democrats every 4 years. -They keep trying the same thing while expecting different results.
One of the recent local elections i voted in had a list of 3 shit Republicans for sheriff. I chose to vote for none of them. Every other ballot choice i filled out.
voting third party is basically non-action
Unless the elections are rigged any party has the same chances of winning, stop spreading misinformation and propaganda, voting a third party is as much action as voting red and blue is.
The overall election rules are rigged in favor of the D/R duopoly. I have several big posts, with sources, on the current statistics. To summarize:
- 3 out of 535 members of US Congress are independent or 3rd party. One of them elected as R and changed in office. One won the D nomination before turning it down and running as independent
- Fewer than 100 out of >7200 state level legislators.
- Zero EC votes for a 3rd party presidential candidate since 1968, including Ross Perot when he won 19% of the national popular vote
- No 3rd party was on the ballot in all 50 states in 2024, only 3 were in more than 10 states
Unless you have an independent or 3rd party incumbent, or have some form of ranked choice in your district the winner will be either the D or R nominee.
Your argument is that elections are rigged because a third party never got voted for?
I’m showing the observations that would lead one to hypothesize that the elections are rigged against 3rd parties. If you can look at the gerrymandered districts, the ballot access rules, the minimum percentage of the vote needed for public funding, the plurality-based vote counting, etc and then combine that with the statistically non-existent representation of 3rd party and independent legislators at the state and federal level and not suspect that the elections are rigged against 3rd parties then I don’t know what to else to say to you.
Unless the elections are rigged any party has the same chances of winning
This is not an accurate statement. Plurality voting inevitably results in a two party system, due to the spoiler effect.
Until we switch away from plurality voting, voting for a third party helps the party you least align with. It’s math. If you’re thinking of a scenario where magically a majority of voters all vote for a third party, you’re not taking this seriously; that is not a realistic scenario.
Now, if you live in Maine, Alaska, or whatever other places that have switched from plurality voting (a) I’m very jealous and (b) you’re encouraged to vote any third party as you see fit.
If you’re thinking of a scenario where magically a majority of voters all vote for a third party
That’s literally what they’re implying. They’re straight delusional. And, unfortunately, there’s a LOT of voters and non-voters out there that are as well.
There should be a name for the fallacy where your stance presupposes that everyone in an uncoordinated system behaves in a coordinated fashion. Let’s call it “The Green Party Fallacy”.
If you’re thinking of a scenario where magically a majority of voters all vote for a third party, you’re not taking this seriously; that is not a realistic scenario.
People voting for whoever they want is a realistic scenario in democratic elections.
Do you understand what the spoiler effect is? It’s sometimes called “splitting the vote”.
It’s why having, for example, two left leaning candidates and one right leaning candidate results in a win for the right-leaning candidate. With plurality voting the candidate with the most votes wins, without regard for whether that candidate has majority (more than 50%) of the vote.
Let’s imagine that we have a population of 100 people and the demographic breakdown is that 60 of them are left leaning and 40 are right leaning. In a two party vote, the left leaning candidate wins. Now imagine a three party election with a liberal, a progressive, and a conservative. If more than 20 left-leaning people vote for the progressive candidate, the conservative wins. Since the voters know this, they have strong incentives to vote for the left leaning candidate they think is most likely to get the most votes, not the one they most align with.
It is technically possible for everyone on the left to all switch parties at the same time, but realistically impossible, especially considering that many people do prefer liberals over progressives.
The only way we get more than two parties is by abandoning plurality voting, and if you’re voting for a third party in a plurality voting system, you’re helping the candidate you least align with.
The world isn’t divided in left and right, you are still assuming that voting for a third party is voting for blue.
You are assuming that American elections are more democratic than they really are.
How are they not democratic?
Every couple of months a brand new movie comes out and millions of people go to watch it because they hear about it on ads. It takes less than a month to make something popular among the public.
Unless the elections are rigged any party has the same chances of winning
Lol. WTF?
voting a third party is as much action as voting red and blue is.
Kiddo. The most popular 3rd party candidate in the last election (Jill Stein) got a whopping half of a single percent of the total votes cast. That means that there was absolutely, positively, categorically no path to victory for her.
So yeah, voting 3rd party, in a national election, is literally pointless and equivalent to inaction.
If you want to vote 3rd party in local/state elections, great. You HAVE to do that for a LONG TIME to start getting more than ZERO 3rd party reps in Congress, and making that 3rd party a household name, before it stands the remotest chance in hell of winning a national election, such as the presidency.
LOL, it’s not misinformation to state the fact that voting third party is basically pissing away your vote. There is no real serious third party option. Maybe we can talk about some other country or some future where a serious party emerges in this country. Until then, what I said is truth.
LOL, it’s not misinformation to state the fact that voting third party is basically pissing away your vote.
Arguing to not vote for third parties because they can never win is indeed misinformation. Governments spend billions in propaganda, what the hell do you think they are advocating for? for people to vote for parties that aren’t part of the government?
There is no real serious third party option.
I would argue that any party is a more serious option than red or blue, they don’t have blood on their hands.
All it takes for a party to get traction and votes is popularity and popularity can be farmed in a day, if a bunch of famous people with millions of followers would start advocating for a third party you would have a revolution in a week.
I would argue that any party is a more serious option than red or blue
Not if they don’t stand the remotest chance in hell of winning.
All it takes for a party to get traction and votes is popularity
Oh, is that it?
and popularity can be farmed in a day
Ok, you’re just delusional.
if a bunch of famous people with millions of followers would start advocating for a third party
Hey, it’s like if every single worker in this country agreed to take part in a national strike, then worker’s demands would be met the next day. Oh wait, that’s a fantasy scenario that will never happen.
On a practical matter the message is still “both are equally acceptable to me”, with a small shade of a slightly louder “I wish there was someone better”.
But it indicates you actively participate and are therefore a winnable vote. That means campaigns are more likely to reach out to you in some way.
Since votes are secret, it really just indicates “I voted is this election and are 50/49/1 percent likely to have voted winner/runner-up/either”
I think not voting at all is a stronger message of “I wasn’t encouraged to actually vote for or against either”, but it’s also indistinguishable from “I just don’t care anymore” or “I was in a coma that November”
I think not voting at all is a stronger message
Have you observed that to be moving the DNC to the left over the past few decades? My observation is that after Kamala received fewer votes than Biden and lost to Trump, in the face of the historic (yet still measly) 4% of the primary vote being for Uncommitted, the entrenched neoliberals are digging in their heels and continuing to oppose progressive primary candidates in 2025 and 2026 primaries. My conclusion is that they don’t care, and we can’t trust them to get any message other than “you’re fired, and being replaced by this progressive candidate.” And the only way to do that is by voting for a progressive primary challenger in the primary.
I see people who don’t vote saying they never receive any flyers, calls, texts, canvassers, or any other kind of outreach from any campaigns. And then I see people who voted in either the primary or the general say they are bombarded with those types of outreach. So it’s hard for me to conclude anything other than that campaigns by and large ignore people with a public record of not voting. Because it’s harder and costs more to get a non-voter to vote than it is to get a voter to vote against the opposition. And in first-past-the-post, that is truly what your vote is in the general. Not a vote for the best, but a vote against the worst who is most likely to win.
“First-past-the-post” is a terrible moniker to describe the sort of single ballot plurality wins elections common in the USA. It’s metaphor is clumsy to the point of inaccuracy, since there isn’t any predermined scale that declares a winner. Whether only 3 votes are cast or 3 million, the winner is whomever has the biggest pile. A better sports metaphor might be “shotput”, but I think “plurality wins” is clear enough.
That being said, that the democratic establishment is ignoring the signals doesn’t mean that they aren’t relatively strong. The party’s voters are moving to the left, so even if the consultant gang isn’t responding to the collective “ew” of Uncommitted someone is.
Yeah, agreed on the wording.
What I mean is whether the signal is being ignored or misinterpreted is kind of immaterial. The desired result is not being observed, so a different tactic is required. We consistently have more non-voters than primary voters, so why not try voting in the primaries where each vote carries more weight than it does in the general? It certainly can’t be construed as a tacit approval of neoliberal policies like a vote for such a nominee in the general could be. So you still get a more clear and direct message than you did with non-voting.
There’s always a worse choice of the choices for who to vote for.
Vote for the other one.
The only perfect candidate for you is you yourself. If you’re not running, and you don’t have some form of ranked choice, not voting against the worse candidate is one fewer vote they need to overcome in order to win. And for your 1 vote against them, they need two for them to get ahead.
you just wrote ‘die’ on a piece of paper…
“I’m aware.”
In Canada, we have “centrists” that are really just fascists that don’t openly hate gay people. There is almost no difference between our current prime minister and the guy so many people were voting against. The stupid thing is that we have a proper progressive party.
My message to you is this: The conservatives know you’re scared and are using that. Their only tactic is to tell you that you need to vote against someone who is worse than them and then they get their power either way. It’s always “we can argue over the shade of blue once you put this specific shade of purple into power” and then nothing happens. The name-brand conservatives complain about them being woke, the “moderates” act like the problem is solved, and the left has to deal with both those idiots refusing to do any work.
Democrats have won multiple times since Carter and we’re still broke and rent is still insane. You’re preaching to the choir, but we didn’t operate concentration camps on American soil, or start two-three(who knows!?) wars.
Better, at the moment is all I can get. One italian kid having the balls to shoot a ceo isn’t enough for these sheep to actually do what’s necessary to fix the disunited states.
Democrats have won multiple times since Carter and we’re still broke and rent is still insane.
Have you considered that maybe part of the reason is that we keep slingshotting back to Republicans every other cycle and they do what they do best and fuck everything up, exactly like they’re doing now?
It’s massively disingenuous to imply Democrats don’t do anything. They have a PROVEN track record for being better for our economy. They’ve regularly bolstered social support programs. They passed the ACA/Obamacare, which definitely helped me when I was younger. They’ve worked to forgive student loans. They don’t make a hobby out of violating Constitutional rights. They don’t send masked goons into our cities to kill Americans. They don’t threaten our allies. They don’t impose tariff taxes.
They aren’t perfect, and clearly we should expect more out of them, but they definitely do get shit done and are a WAY, WAY, INFINITELY better option than Republicans and, realistically, the only other option on a federal level.
You’re right. They held our wellbeing just high enough for us not to riot. Now they know our bottom line is even lower than the meager leftovers they used to give us to make us think they’re the good guys. I’ll still vote for them over Republicans but the “good cop” party only cares about us as far as it gets them.
Now, that’s gonna change, hopefully. “The Democrats” that are pre-Trump are going to be seeing a bit of a socialist makeover before there’s any power grab by them ever again. The Democrats we knew won’t be The Democrats we know soon enough.
Gotta agree here. In terms of endorsing human rights, Dems have a far superior record to the GOP. However, it’s their motivation that I question. Since most Dems are beholden to their corporate donors, their motivation is “freedom of consumption,” that is, giving access of consumption to marginalized groups to maximize profits. I wonder how much of it is a genuine concern for human rights.
It also explains how Dems don’t go far enough or fight hard enough when it comes to marginalized groups.
I’ll take a win regardless of the motivation, but it’s interesting to investigate the underlying motivations.
THANK YOU
Imo, we can fight over what shade of blue after the pedos are out of office.
I’m not sure what you are advocating for but if your argument is to vote for the democrat party to counter evil people such as pedophiles your best option is to advocate for a different party that isn’t affiliated with any pedophile and that doesn’t endorse genocides.
My flow chart represents exactly those people recieving my vote first and foremost if available. The Democrats are only viable in the absence of any decent choice.
your best option is to advocate for a different party
Lol.
I still don’t know what the right combination of words is to get this through to people like you. Or if that combination even exists. Maybe caps? Let’s try caps.
NO 3RD PARTY IS VIABLE ON A NATIONAL SCALE MEANING NO 3RD PARTY EVEN STANDS THE REMOTEST CHANCE OF WINNING THE PRESIDENCY OR CONTROLLING OUR FEDERAL GOVERNMENT.
Did that work?
Even if a 3rd party started really putting in the effort (none are) and American voters started taking them seriously, it would still likely take DECADES for that movement to build to the point that it stood a chance of winning a national election. That means that you WILL have Democrats or Republicans in control of the federal government, likely for the remainder of your life.
So if you want to help a 3rd party by voting for their candidates in local/state elections, then I’m with you and I support you. But if you aren’t adulting up and voting for Dems in NATIONAL elections to prevent ACTUAL FASCISTS from taking control, then you have failed at life.
Again, for the foreseeable future, Democrats or Republicans will control our federal government and Dems are so unbelievably better than Republicans that if someone can’t acknowledge that, I have to believe they have brain damage.
Hm, it seems as if this patient is dying from a sucking chest wound. Doctor, how should we proceed?
“First, we need to get his diabetes under control. Then we will stop the bleeding.”
That’s the thing, there will always be those COUPLE OF DEMOCRATS that come out of nowhere and flip on ONLY the key issues we care about. Lieberman, Manchin, Sinema, Collins, Fetterman, etc.
Funny how we always just have to vote a little harder, right?
A lot of moderate and right wing Dems here.
Fetterman is a Trojan horse. They sent an undercover chud to parade around as woke. Bro looks about as woke as a snorlax
And if you don’t vote in primaries, you need to start. It’s the only chance any of us have a say-so on who ends up on the Dem ticket.
It’s hard to buck the establishment. ~16,000 people were the difference in a state of 10 million.
If every eligible voter participated it wouldn’t even be close. Always blows my mind seeing comments on voting doesn’t matter when I’m on average voting for 3-4 other citizens in primaries.
If Democrats don’t take at least one chamber of Congress in the fall, I genuinely worry they may never again. The little that’s left of American democracy won’t survive another 2 years of full MAGA control. Anyone urging you to not vote for the Democrat in your races or to not vote at all is either running a right-wing/foreign influence campaign or so clueless about the big picture as to be safely ignored.
Anyone urging you to not vote for the Democrat in your races or to not vote at all is either running a right-wing/foreign influence campaign or so clueless about the big picture as to be safely ignored.
Anyone urging you to not vote for a party that supported and fueled a genocide is running a foreign influence campaign? Sound most likely to be the other way around to me
The party is far from unified on that issue. There are plenty of anti-genocide voices within the Democratic party, and you should try to elect Democrats if you want any of them to be anywhere close to holding power.
The party is far from unified on that issue.
The previous blue administration endorsed and fueled a genocide where thousand of kids were murdered, without any repercussion. To me it looks like they are quite unified on the issue.
How would you feel about anti-corruption voices within the republican party?
The previous admin is not the whole party. Clearly the republicans are better on this issue 🙄
If that were the case, why don’t any of the DSA candidates run on their own party? Oh they don’t? So you’re clearly full of shit or you don’t know anything about this topic to have an opinion
If that were the case, why don’t any of the DSA candidates run on their own party?
If you would rather run with a party endorsing a genocide than with another i’m gonna guess it’s because you are actually fine with their policies. There are more parties than red or blue.
You didn’t answer my question. Why do all the anti Israel DSA candidates run on the democratic platform? THINK MAN. THINK
yes TheFonz let’s think, why do these politicians keep aligning themself with criminals? If i have to guess it’s because they care more about power and being popular than doing what is good. Is bernie sanders an anti israel DSA candidate? Why is he on the platform of a nazi and doesn’t even bother to spend 2 minutes to set up a mastodon account?
If you would rather run with a party endorsing a genocide than with another
There are more parties than red or blue.
I mean, I have to ask. Are you brain damaged?
Really. Be honest when I ask this next question.
Do you actually believe a 3rd party can win a federal election?
Because the most popular 3rd party candidate in the last election (Jill Stein) got a half of a single percent of the total votes cast. Meaning there was absolutely, positively, categorically no path to victory for her, or any other 3rd party.
So no, there is literally no other party than red or blue when we’re talking about control of our federal government.
So you’ve either got to be brain damaged or so acutely unaware of American politics that you really shouldn’t be commenting on it.
Foreign influence campaign is the generous assumption. No one would be stupid enough to genuinely recommend we hand the election to MAGA because Democrats haven’t done enough against Israel.
Would they?
If you ask me the best way to handle power to the red party is to keep voting for red and blue, these two parties cycle in power and enable one another to win.
Well you didn’t say what you suggest instead, but third parties only hurt the party they resemble more. Bernie figured this out and works within the vehicle of the Democratic Party. I wish people would pick up the damn clue from him.
Bernie figured this out and works within the vehicle of the Democratic Party. I wish people would pick up the damn clue from him.
Personally i’ve figured out that this guy does nothing but propaganda for the red and blue party, gate keeping votes that could go to other parties and actually threat this corrupted system
I see. You’re still enjoying the fantasy of 3rd parties. Okay. I mean, we all go through that sometime.
Anyone urging you to not vote for a party that supported and fueled a genocide
Please, for the love of all things beautiful, shut the fuck up about this. It’s old. It’s tired. It’s worn out. It’s counter-productive.
Democrats or Republicans WILL control the federal government. One of those are ACTUAL, REAL fascists who utterly fuck up everything. The others are not and it’s stupid and disingenuous to imply they are.
With that in mind, any person that isn’t extravagantly stupid knows that we need to get Dems back in control of our federal government, after which we can work on reforming them to push them in a more progressive direction.
So please, stop with this tired ass unhelpful bullshit.
Regardless of the outcome elections, the GOP isn’t leaving.
Good that you’re holding out hope. Some of us have already lost that lovin’ feeling.
To clarify, I was just saying the bell may already be rung, and I’m no longer of the view that we can definitely right this ship. BUT I am NOT saying we should not try. I’ll keep trying until the bitter end.
And then continue to work to make the party more reflective of its members
Oh, we’ll vote for them, but the Democratic Party must cease to be undemocratic, and they must stop their ploy to act as a honeypot to capture and neutralize progressive policies and politicians. They must reckon with us, not the other way around. Armistice. That is the offer. After the midterms there will be deep canvassing in every district the shitlib Democrats thought were safe. Now they can go ask for more fucking money from their malefactors. They’ll need it.
And this is consistent with how Bernie has voted over the years. If his vote doesn’t matter on a bill that will move things towards his goals but not enough, he votes no. However, if his vote is needed, he’ll vote yes because some progress is better than no progress.
And it is always amazing how people will claim to like Bernie but really don’t like it when this is pointed out.
Perfection is the enemy of the good. I understand that. I am also empathetic to the choice of those who sit out elections when they feel ignored. I don’t agree with it, but i understand.
Honestly though, we’re not even talking about perfection. We’re not even getting anyone that’s better that the stock, spineless, no-idea Democrat in a lot of places. I get why people sit out when all you hear is no big ideas other than, REPBULICAN IS BAD, VOTE BLUE NO MATTER WHO.
I’ll say it until I’m blue in the face.
Not voting is a moral endorsement of whoever wins no matter how bad they may be.
(For single non-transferrable votes like we usually have in the US this also applies to spoiling your ballot or voting for a vanity candidate.)
We’re not even getting anyone that’s better that the stock, spineless, no-idea Democrat in a lot of places.
Do you know what’s worse than stock, spinless, no-idea Democrats?
Fascist Republicans.
Do you know what happens when you sit out the vote?
You, as someone who might’ve voted Democrat, now are not. This increases the Republican vote.
You are enabling fascists.
People like me are frustrated by the spineless right-center Democrats as well, but I FUCKING VOTE BLUE TO PREVENT FASCISTS FROM TAKING OFFICE.
In the primary, vote progressive. Support progressives running for office! BE a fucking progressive running for office if you can. BUT WHEN YOUR CHOICE IS FASCISM OR NOT FASCISM FUCKING VOTE FOR NOT FASCISM OR YOU SUPPORT FASCISM. The general election is TOO FUCKING LATE and THAT is why you FUCKING VOTE BLUE IN THE GENERAL ELECTION NO MATTER WHO because they are better than the fucking fascist option.
Jesus fucking Christ it’s not that fucking hard.
You are correct.
But the people you are trying to address are children throwing a tantrum who want what they want and nothing else. So they’ll absolutely not vote or vote for a 3rd party candidate for president that literally cannot win and, thus, help Republican fascists take control.
They do not care about the welfare of their nation (or any other nation). They care about their own self-satisfaction.
I’m also tired of trying to reach them by pretending that the only reason I vote Democrat is to prevent fascist Republicans from taking control. It’s a strategy to try to plead with these idiots using a single, very important point. Keep the fascists out. But I’ve been alive for long enough to know that Dems are always better regarding our economy. They don’t collect Constitutional violations like trading cards. They do things like pass the ACA/Obamacare and try to eliminate student debt. They vote to bolster social support programs.
I’m tired of pretending Dems are better just because they aren’t Republicans. They definitely aren’t perfect, but they get shit done and they have a track record to prove it. Most Americans, and especially the type that don’t vote or vote 3rd party, are too goddamn lazy to do their homework to discover this truth about the Democrat party.
Dems are already infinitely better than Republicans. The Democrat party just needs to be reformed to be pushed in a more progressive direction, which is totally possible since we just witnessed conservatives reforming the Republican party in the worst way possible over the last decade.
Ah yes everyone in the other political party is literally Hitler. Convenient
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Are they? When they vote in a “bipartisan” way and ensure the fascists get 90% of their way? Nah, I’ve done and defended the harm reduction for the past decade and a half now, constantly holding my nose to vote for the assholes only to get mostly fascist bullshit. Nothing like Democrats who voted to give ICE MORE MONEY!
Nah, I vote in every primary for who I want and if after I vote someone who’s going to run with a Republican, fuck them. I’ll take the quick burn to the ground vs only burning slightly slower, not like these milquetoast assholes are actively doing anything to prevent it, welcoming fascism coming anyways.
Nah, I’m over the bullshit Blue no matter bullshit for no-idea, do nothingings especially when it’s not reciprocated.
Look, you can whine about Democrats all you want. The reality is no 3rd party is going to win the presidency anytime even remotely soon. As in, even if a 3rd party actually started putting in effort (they aren’t) and Americans actually started showing support for that 3rd party on a local/state level, it would still probably take decades for that movement to gain enough traction to have a shot at the presidency.
So you WILL get Republicans or Democrats in control of our federal government for the foreseeable future, and likely the remainder of your life.
Sooooooooooooooo do the math. It’s really not that hard.
You get actual fascists. Or you get a milquetoast party that’s always better with our economy, doesn’t violate the fuck out of our Constitutional rights, doesn’t impose tariff taxes on us, doesn’t have masked goons executing Americans in the streets, occasionally does things like pass the ACA/Obamacare, forgive student loans, bolster social support programs, doesn’t threaten our allies and cozy up to dictators, etc etc etc etc etc etc.
More power to you if you want to vote 3rd party in local/state elections. But if you can’t adult up and vote for the FAR, FAR better option when it comes to a presidential election, then you’re straight garbage. Period.
I’ll take the quick burn to the ground
This is a profoundly immature statement. I promise you if a quick burn to the ground actually happened you would regret it. You are not prepared to live in a collapsed nation. I promise you.
welcoming fascism coming anyways.
Yeah, obviously you are.
My experience with the Obama/Bernie/Trump voter isn’t that they have some nuanced understanding of politics that must be studied. They’re just extremely responsive to a charismatic performance.
It totally depends on the candidate, their platform and who is financing their campaign. Just voting for someone because theyre a democrat gives us people like Kristen Sinema, Joe Manchin and Marie Gluesenkamp Perez who end up voting with the fascists.
Fetterman, Manchin, and Sinema, bad as they are and were, were still the better choice compared to their general election opponents.
An occasional collaborator sucks,. but is less-bad than either an unrepentant facist or an aligned “moderate” like Collins.
I feel like people forget that the alternative to Fetterman was Dr Oz.
Swapping Fetterman for Oz would have given the GOP majorities in both House and Senate, put Mitch McConnell back as Senate President, and generally been an objectively worse outcome.
Exactly this. I don’t disagree with wanting to cut the weakest members of the team to find someone better, but that’s for the primaries.
Looking at real numbers, Fetterman is better than Manchin or Sinema. Fetterman breaks with party lines around 25% of the time while Sinema was at 33% and Manchin was almost 40%. That makes him around twice as good as Manchin.
Idealogically, he also seems to stack up more favorably than both Manchin and Sinema, and a few other well know congressfolk that never get brought up in these conversations. Fetterman, like Manchin and Sinema, just seems to draw more attention to himself when he does it.
Do I dislike Fetterman and want him gone and replaced by someone better? Heck yeah! But the record shows he’s about 75% better than having Dr Oz as my senator would have been. Ignoring the times he did do what he was sent to do is very misleading to people that don’t take the time to look at actual data, which is going to be nearly everyone. Conor Lamb’s ideology score doesn’t look any better, so what we got is still about the best we had a chance to get.
People also fail to take account of Fetterman’s stroke, which clearly affected his allegiances.
He was known before it as a homespun man of the people.
Brain damage causes conservatism.
This is such a good point I hate to see it buried. The GOP in those areas would vote in satan2 if he had a red hat and said nice things about them.
if he had a red hat and said nice things about them.
Don’t even need to say nice things about them. Trump talks down to his supporters all the time and they slurp it up. It’s a cult thing. And if you have the mark of the cult upon your body, then you can say whatever and not lose support.
Agreed. Fuck Fetterman, but fuck Oz even more.
It totally depends on the candidate …
That’s what the primaries are for. Hope you have or will vote in yours this year.
Also depends on the type of election. If you aren’t a fascist and you don’t vote Dem in a FEDERAL election (presidency) then there is something broken inside your brain and you need to immediately seek a more thorough education.
There is more nuance in smaller local/state elections though. But, assuming you aren’t a fascist, you still need to determine whether a Republican (fascist) will win if you don’t vote Dem.
If you want to vote 3rd party you need to accept that you are getting in on an enterprise building up from the basement of a very large building. You’re going to need to vote 3rd party for very small local offices for a very long time before you can start voting for them on a state level, and even longer before voting for them on a federal level. There is no cheat code to bypass this.
And who was the other option? Was it a Republican? Is it your assertion tha the Republican they were running against would have had a better voting record? Because that’s what you’re saying if you’re saying not to vote for the Democrat, no matter how shitty.
Or are you saying magically go back in time and run someone better? Because the opportunity to do so was not the general, but th eprimary.
But when it comes down to the general and you have one blue and one red option, GIVE ME ONE FUCKING EXAMPLE WHERE VOTING RED OR NOT VOTING BLUE IS THE CORRECT CHOICE.
Because all these people who sit out the vote are effectively voting red.
Bernie also gave Pennsylvania Fetterman
Bernie couldn’t have predicted his traumatic brain damage
This is who fettermans always been to anyone paying attention
Explain at what time and how he was brain damaged?
Dude’s had multiple strokes; his own staffer notes his change in disposition
https://people.com/john-fetterman-shares-graphic-photo-of-stitches-after-fall-11850101
Prior to his Nov. 13 [stroke], Fetterman experienced a stroke while on the campaign trail in May 2022, and in May of that year shared that he had been diagnosed with atrial fibrillation, which affects the two upper chambers of the heart. Ventricular fibrillation, the condition his spokesperson referred to after Fetterman’s most recent hospital stay, affects the two lower chambers.
In February 2023, Fetterman was hospitalized overnight for lightheadedness. At the time, his spokesperson said, “Initial tests did not show evidence of a new stroke, but doctors are running more tests and John is remaining overnight for observation.”
Just weeks after he was admitted to the hospital in February, Fetterman checked himself into Walter Reed National Military Medical Center for clinical depression.
“Part of the tragedy here is that this is a man who could be leading Democrats out of the wilderness,” Jentleson said. “But I also think he’s struggling in a way that shouldn’t be hidden from the public.”
Thanks to the ignorant cunts who ignore primaries thinking they don’t matter.
When that happens your November choice is between whoever got through the primary or the MAGAt, so people sit it out and removed about their choices.
If enough progressives actually got involved rather than whining about things they could make huge gains and reshape the pathetic Democrats, alas, it’s easier to whine on the internet then go pay attention in the summer and stand in line to vote.
Voters have helped train the party that they can be horrible politicians that are never held accountable because voters will keep coming back. And every election they get slightly worse, because there is no accountability. Our current political landscape is the fault of the VBNMW crowd that’s allowed it to happen, including getting trump elected.
New York, and now Michigan, and I’m sure others will follow suite electing more progressive candidates because suddenly people are realizing primaries matter. Pointing backwards and shouting at the past isn’t going to get all those fucking pedophiles out of office.
https://www.npr.org/2026/08/05/g-s1-137422/primary-elections
BE salty, but put that anger toward something useful, like helping a non establishment candidate win in a primary.
It doesn’t matter of Democrats are the majority or minority party if they do nothing to benefit the working class. You voted for what you didn’t want in office and got it anyway.
I’m guessing you either did the same, or didn’t vote.
I dont support fascists of either color
Oh, so did you get what you didn’t vote for?
I’d rather vote for something I want and not get it than vote for something I don’t want, and get it.
Eugene V. Debs
As is tradition.
For a while now the Ds have been owned by corpos. They support the establishment and that stance is as far left as center right, and many times far less left than that’s. A lot of D candidates have R policies with some lip service to left ideology. The governor of MI was caught saying she didn’t care what the people wanted about data centers, she’ll make a deal to build them anyway. Gavin Newsom is positioning himself as a presidential candidate and he’s about as corpo establishment as someone can get. So when the choice is a corporate owned candidate thats either far right or center right, its not really a choice. I won’t vote blue no matter who b/c that just enables and empowers Ds to continue acting like they currently are.
Might as well pin this. Going to need this until November.
Just your friendly reminder that online right-wing operatives have a strong inclination to sow defeatism and apathy and push people to vote third party when it’s abundantly clear that there won’t be a race anywhere in the country where the Democrat isn’t better than the Republican in a binary choice election. Clearly, Bernie agrees.
Both the red and blue party are guilty of endorsing and fueling a genocide where thousand of kids were murdered
US and israel governments are spending billions in propaganda, if you ask me there’s more change that they are promoting the vote for red and blue rather than a third party that could actually change the system and end israel support. Regardless of that you should not vote for any evil party run by pedophiles and that support a genocide.
Trump’s choice to immediately dismantle America’s climate policy will kill 1.3 million people, most in India/China/Pakistan/developing African countries. Tell me again how superior you are by throwing away a vote to keep them alive.
Tell me again how superior you are by throwing away a vote to keep them alive.
If the government is killing a million of people it’s about time to take the streets. If you would rather enjoy your daily life and your commodities and vote for the lesser evil party you are not superior to anyone, if you encourage this lifestyle you are part of a corrupted system.
That’s not relevant to the topic at hand and a false dichotomy. You had a choice to vote for mitigating the very obvious and irreversible tragedy. You tacitly approved a social murder 17x as big as Gaza on day 1, let alone a discussion about Democrat green policy mitigating more damage. The clock is ticking and already more than Gaza are doomed.
The slim chance at accelerating overturn of the system, which doesn’t look any closer to today than 2024, was worth murdering them by inaction? Tell me what math you’re using that doesn’t look insane next to someone claiming that the world is more nuanced than 70k Gaza deaths. Tell me how your choice will end any differently to the people who decided not to vote for Al Gore to “teach Democrats a lesson”, which only accelerated the irreversible destruction of our biosphere (in addition to numerous other tragedies)?
This is what is happening to people in gaza and nearby territories. Go watch the videos of dying children and tell me again you are fine with the government killing only 100 of them instead of 300
3500 people died in one day due to extreme heat in India. At that rate you’d surpass Gaza’s death toll in less than 20 days, and it’s only getting worse. Countless more are now turning into climate refugees, forced from their unlivable homes just like the Palestinians. Tell me how little those lives mean to you.
Tell me you’re fine with 3500 deaths - the vast majority being children, the elderly, pregnant women and chronically ill - on top of hundreds of Gazan children just to keep your moral purity. Palestinians are still being murdered, but at least the excess mountain of human suffering let you feel good about yourself.
3500 people died in one day due to extreme heat in India.
The pedophile trump didn’t start climate change, you can blame the red and blue party for that, both parties served capitalism and corporations for a century and boycotted people who tried to change the system for good.
Tell me how little those lives mean to you.
I’m the one advocating for human lives and you are calling me out for it
Tell me you’re fine with 3500 deaths - the vast majority being children, the elderly, pregnant women and chronically ill
I’m not and that’s why i’m arguing we shouldn’t vote for the parties that enabled this to happen. The genocide in gaza is just the tip of the iceberg of what the US government has been involved with.
on top of hundreds of Gazan children just to keep your moral purity. Palestinians are still being murdered, but at least the excess mountain of human suffering let you feel good about yourself.
I’ve never argued that, that’s more what you are doing right now.
Lol. You’re like a brain damaged parrot that only knows one word.
Clownosaurus. We get it. Genocide. We’re pointing out to you that your actions MADE IT WORSE. But that brain damage of yours isn’t allowing you to grasp that.
Lol. You’re like a brain damaged parrot that only knows one word.
If the images of dying children makes you laugh you want to take a break and think hard about what you are doing.
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Even if, it doesn’t matter from a logical or ethical standpoint.
- If Harris was elected, USAID would still be in place.
- As a result of that, over 600,000 people would now be alive who otherwise are not.
- Harris was still objectively the better choice even on Gaza, climate change, USAID, LGBTQ+ rights, women’s rights, Ukrainian sovereignty (and Russia’s genocidal perpetration thereof) notwithstanding.
Sadly, the easiest bet to make is that either Red or Blue will win in November; and within that framework it is abundantly clear that Blue is the objectively better choice.
And don’t forget, we would likely not be at war with Iran, the economy would still be moving in a recovery direction, USA would still be persuing climate friendly R&D, and we would not have concentration camps abusing and torturing immigrants and innocent citizens*
100%. At this point I believe that anyone denying this as fact is either a fool, or a Republican operative.
You are speculating what criminals who supported a genocide would have done.
Sadly, the easiest bet to make
Stop betting and start making serious decisions.
I will. The track record proves Democrats are better on all these issues, and there is ZERO evidence to suggest Harris would’ve revoked USAID that has now killed hundreds of thousands (more than Gaza). I will thus vote Democrat, as that is the only rational thing to do.
There was plenty of evidence to suggest this would happen if Trump and Musk’s endorsement won.
Again, you are speculating what a criminal who supported a genocide would have done. If someone is ok with murdering children that’s enough not to trust them on any issues.
I will thus vote Democrat, as that is the only rational thing to do.
If you were alive in the 1940 the only rational thing to do would have been to grab a gun and fight the nazi. I’m not suggesting anyone should go to war but there’s no rationality in supporting a system that is rotten to the core. You are free to vote whoever you want but supporting the democrat party and claiming that to vote them is the only rational thing to do is simply not true.
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Let’s not back the 3rd party that’s leaps and bounds better than either shade of fascism. Let’s keep the status quo that’s holding us all down firmly in place.
If voters keep rewarding bad behavior from their politicians the next version of trump to come along will be way worse.
Sadly those 3rd parties mathematically have no feasible path to overtaking the two parties in control without dissolving one first.
To dissolve a party you need to first start by creating a schism within the party itself. Utilize that schism to create a popularist outcry that allows the reformation of a new party. We do not have a system like proportional representation that allows for 3rd parties to grow and develop influence via coalitions.
Ignoring this is just willfully ignorant and is actually a strategy that the two parties employ to split votes from their main adversary.
No one is saying they want to keep the status quo, just that it is more feasible to completely reshape the party than to elevate an existing third party.
We’ve already seen it happen over the last ten years with the Republican party. How radical right winged factions infiltrated the old power structures and pushed the party further and further right. We could do the same with the old guard in the democratic party.
- Democratic party whom I align with 70% of time (as does Sanders): ~50% odds of winning
- Republican party whom I align with 0% of time: ~50% odds of winning.
- Third party whom I may or may not align with depending whom (and who are you actually fucking talking about?): 99.999% chance of losing, and thanks to the spoiler effect all but enables the greater poison to win.
Genius. Simply genius. Please, learn how Democratic primaries work, get engaged, and all your concerns will be assuaged.
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You know what causes 3rd parties to not win? Voters that think they are not viable. You know what would make them viable? Voters voting for them. Instead of having some balls and voting your conscience most voters wnt to be on a ‘winning team’ rather than do what’s right.
Spoiler effect is something that only happens in the minds of liberals, there could be NO 3rd party on the ballot and we are still not going to support your flavor of fascism.
They aren’t viable when, election after election, they get at most 2 to 3 percent and everyone knows it.
Not my problem, I vote for what I want in government. I’ll leave the tribalism to the fascists
Throwing away your vote helps ensure the worst of the two viable candidates gets elected.
Democrats alone got the worst of them elected both times. You’ve seen the numbers, Harris would have still lost if all 3rd party votes went to her. Decades of liberal ‘lesser evil’ has only resulted in the greater evil. That’s what happens when bad behavior is rewarded.
This is incorrect, actually, but I expect nothing more from someone I have tagged for dubious claims about Russia and China. Yikes!
If anyone else has better arguments or questions and who isn’t from .ml I’ll engage in good faith :)
No one cares about your good faith when your good faith is only looking for confirmation bias
Fascists appreciate your support.
Democrats don’t appreciate my support
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Let’s not back the 3rd party that’s leaps and bounds better than either shade of fascism.
NO VIABLE 3RD PARTY ON A FEDERAL LEVEL.
NO VIABLE 3RD PARTY ON A FEDERAL LEVEL.
NO VIABLE 3RD PARTY ON A FEDERAL LEVEL.
Let me know how many more times I have to repeat it before it sinks in.
Fun Fact: The 3rd party candidate with the most votes in 2024 was Jill Stein with a half of a single percent of the total votes cast, confirming that no 3rd party has any path at all to winning a federal election.
Alright. So here it comes. Stick with me just a little longer. You got this.
Considering that we KNOW BEYOND DOUBT that a 3rd party can’t win a federal election, that leaves only two possible parties that will control our federal government. Think REAL REAL hard about which of those two parties you’d rather have control and then GO FUCKING VOTE FOR THEM.
Then, to make yourself feel all nice inside, when your local/state elections come up, have a fucking blast voting for 3rd party candidates and I’ll be right there cheering you on. Because voting for 3rd parties in local/state elections FOR A LONG TIME is how you ONE DAY get a 3rd party that can maybe possibly win a federal election.
Psssst. We only have 3 months until the election. Ain’t gonna be a viable 3rd party by then. Ain’t gonna be one in 2028 either.
Hope this helped. I somehow doubt it did though.
Decades of liberals thinking they’re choosing a lesser evil and they’ve got to show for it is a greater evil
By better you mean to the left of trump, even though the DNC are now first term trump Republicans?
I mean even if we entertain what you say is true (it’s not), yes – that is by definition better than the alternative binary choice.
As your ‘better alternative’ keeps getting worse because there is no accountability
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How exactly is Bernie Sanders a shit person. Please explain. I am willing to listen, so please do your best.
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Yes, good job, this is a great example, thank you!
Will do, sir!!!
