I’m confused. I thought veganism was about animal welfare, what does it have to do with food being made out of chemicals?
Hi Vegan 1!
The same exact compounds found in food and other products can either originate from an animal or a non-animal source. Veganism is about avoiding the animal sources. The compound itself is mostly irrelevant.
it is but it’s also hitched to “crunchy” culture, which has some weird braindead threads running through it about body purity and “nature = good”.
They put chemicals in everything now. I heard they even put dihydrogen monoxide in the water!
“Chemical” is now used with the meaning of “ultra-processed ingredient with either unknown origin or unknow effect on your body”. It is not the first meaning of the term but I guess it is a meaning now and we have to deal with it.
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The problem with that is that it is a completely meaningless distinction. Some of the worst chemicals we often put in our foods are certain kinds of nitrates that are used as preservatives, but those same nitrates occur naturally in celery. If you just eat celery the concentration is low enough to be harmless, but it can be concentrated naturally. If you’ve ever seen celery juice or celery powder on the list of ingredients for a food it is the exact same thing, and just as bad for you.
Naturally occurring isn’t the same as healthy. Most plants are some degree of poisonous. They don’t want to be eaten, and can’t run away. That’s just how they defend themselves. We farm the ones we are well adapted to eat, but even with that and millennia of selective breeding it’s still not perfect. Ultra processed foods are bad for you because your health is not a priority for the people doing the processing, not because there is something inherently worse about industrially synthesized ingredients. They can be anything we want, and they are currently mostly addictive and only satisfying for a very short amount of time, but that is a decision, not an inherent flaw.
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I mean, the entire first point I made there was about how that was meaningless. Having the exact same chemical called a “chemical” sometimes and not others actively hurts our ability to communicate about what’s in our food. That’s not your fault, but it still bothers me.
Literally everything is made out of chemicals. Naturaphiles are loonyburgers.
Also: botulinum toxin, ricin, lead, uranium, ebola, rabies, the fucking sun… The list of completely natural things that can kill us in the most horrific ways imaginable is almost endless.
No thanks. I only eat photons.
I think it helps to understand that when some people say “chemicals” in the context of highly processed foods, they mean “industrial additives”.
Or maybe layman shouldn’t try to hijack scientifically precise words?
People don’t seem to understand that even chemicals are made of something. They’re not synthesized out of thin air. It is not stupid to ask what they’re made of. The resources can be very diverse.
The “something” in question is elements. Barring the very inadvisable edge case where you’re ingesting some kind of pure metal or degenerate matter there is not anything you can eat that does not contain chemicals.
Complaining about a food containing “chemicals” makes about as much sense as calling out the software you use for being compiled from “code”.
Yes, but what I meant was, for example, artificial vanilla flavour is a chemical, which used to be made from cloves oil, now is made from wood compounds. The processes and ingrediences needed to produce it are also diverse and interesting.
Me, crushing up blood-cruelty cocaine in a tiny one-cent plastic baggie: “I really hope this baggie doesn’t have PFAS in it…”
A better question is “is this ultra processed”
Like, is this a product comprised mostly highly refined and modified ingredients? And thus is it likely to have had important nutritional components removed?
In all likelihood, none of the actual ingredients are actively bad for you in moderation, but, it’ll be nutritionally lacking.
Everything is made of chemicals
Chemicals can also be non vegan. Side note: for a long time (might still be) camera film wasn’t vegan, since it used bovine gelatin. Kodak Eastman even had their own cow ranch to supply all the bones. (Goes to show chemicals don’t have to be vegan)
Goes to show chemicals don’t have to be vegan
There is a lot of them. In the EU classification of food additif, anything under the E47 categorie can either be animal or vegetal. E471 for example could be either pork skin, beef bones, fish bones, palm or coconut oil derivative. Nicely wrapped and served in so many bread and brioche product to Jews, Muslims, Hindus, vegetarians and vegans.
And there is so many more that are straight up animal products but presented in a latin name. In France, industrials even started to used Canadian french terms to confuse people when the insect additives for colours and textures started to gross out to many people.
I live with two junkfood vegans and oh my god dude. I’m literally broke and eating from food banks and my diet is less bad than theirs.
Junk vegans are truly majestic creatures
Okay, look. Atoms, in all their wonder make up pretty much everything known to exist in the universe. Chemistry, the science of chemicals, is just taking that understanding we have of atoms and applying it to how the atoms interact based on what atoms are there, their charges, bonds, etc.
Thus unless it’s on the periodic table, where it would be an element, then it’s a chemical.
Even assuming that instead of “chemicals”, people mean synthetic chemicals… To that I say… Who cares?
Synthetic chemicals come in two forms: a synthesized version of a chemical that is naturally occurring, where synthesis is a more commercially viable way to obtain that chemical, or a chemical that isn’t found naturally, which undergoes significant scrutiny before anyone is allowed to put it in your food and sell it to you.
We generally give “natural” chemicals less scrutiny than synthetic chemicals. And I’ll remind everyone that cyanide is a naturally occurring chemical. Though it’s natural, we don’t general add that to our food. Some food contains cyanide naturally, like cherry pits, but that’s usually a part we don’t eat.
The WHO has a whole article about toxins in food… https://www.who.int/news-room/fact-sheets/detail/natural-toxins-in-food
So yeah, it might be made of synthetic chemicals, which have been researched, scrutinized, and peer reviewed before being approved for consumption and being put in my food. I can’t say the same for literally anything “natural”. We just ate that shit and if you died from eating a thing, nobody else ate that thing. And that was the way of things before modern science and chemicals…
So fuck you, and the horse you rode in on.
As someone wholly uneducated on these kinds of things, I just choose to use the heuristic of defaulting to using/ingesting natural substances, as much as practical, because we evolved with them and it would seem more likely our bodies (and the ecosystem) know how to deal with them. I also don’t trust the government to be discerning/uncorruptible enough to not allow stuff to pass that shouldn’t, especially now. Peer review is more trustworthy though, and gets more trustworthy the longer something has been around and studied more.
I feel you’re mixing stuff up here, don’t eat processed food, buy “bio”/“ecological” if you’d like less bad stuff in your food.
Belladonna is natural and saves lives, take too much and you die. This whole “natural” thing is so infested with scammers, it’s just not “the government”.
Oh yeah, true. Forgot about the the supplement grift.
You always gotta check the chemicals to make sure they didn’t sneak dairy in for some reason.
I saw a bumper sticker that said “Do you eat GMO food?” me being smart ass and liking history said yes. Damned near all food humans eat at scale has been modified through artificial selection, at least if it’s in a lab we are less likely to inbred the plant so badly that they are effectively a clone species. Also I thought of cows when I read that sticker a notable downgrade from the might aurochs.
But nobody means selective breeding when they say GMO. That term emerged specifically to describe the products of genetic engineering. There a plenty of legitimate concerns.
Sure but I’ve legit heard people call selectively breed things GMO because it was exceptionally specific and broad in its effects. Also I am not going to take some of these bumper sticker types seriously until I stop seeing non-GMO stickers on inorganic products like salt or water.
Be aware, “those” people are corporate shills intentionally trying to confuse and distract from concerns about GMO foods.
I don’t think stupid is necessarily equal to corporate shill. Frankly speaking anyone who is vaguely in the anti GMO block is being labeled as stupid possibly conspiracy theorist until they start to bring up cross pollenation risks and corporate parents.
Ehhh, I’ve heard people say the covid vaccine was genetic modification. It’s just too vague a term to be actually useful.
Dear vegan 2, that is true for everything.
“This frustration of reading the tabloid press… it would easy to become convinced that the human race is on a mission to divide things into two clean columns… Good or evil, healthy or deadly or natural or chemical… Everything organic and natural is good, ignoring the fact that organic natural substances include arsenic and poo and crocodiles. And everything chemical is bad, ignoring the fact that… everything is chemicals. Everything is chemicals! The day they discover yoga mats are carcinogenic will be the happiest day of my life.”
— Tim Minchin
Dihydrogen monoxide
Oh god!!!
Get thee behind me, Satan, I shan’t drink your hellish brew!
That stuff can kill you in minutes
It’s got the highest pH rating of any acid we know of.
Hydrogen hydroxide
All kinds of weird shit you’d think would be vegan aren’t… like some brands of white sugar (bone char) and some beers (isinglass [fish swim bladders]). And there’s always our good friend with a million names, cochineal/carmine/crimson lake/natural red 4/E120, aka bugs that make your food red.
They sneak gelatin into so many things too. One that got me for a year or two after I went vegetarian was Altoids. I liked to keep em in my car to have something to munch/occupy myself while driving, and never even thought to check the ingredients. How could mints have animal in em? Turns out they have gelatin! I honestly never miss meat or anything, but I do miss gelatin to a degree. Not because I want gelatin in particular, but it’s in so many tasty things, and vegetarian gummies and the like are always so expensive ;_;
Not to say your wrong, but I personally don’t understand this strict adherence to pretty arbitrary rules. I agree with the idea of vegan/vegetarian, as a way to protest animal mistreatment and the increased resources animals consume. However, that amount of gelatin is not playing a factor in that. It’s also not hurting you at all. I’m curious what makes you be so strict?
I can’t speak for them, but:
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I found gelatin kind of disgusting even before going vegetarian, and many vegetarians, including past me, grow more disgusted after they become vegetarian. You typically also inform yourself more and learn of various foods with gelatin, where you might’ve found the thought disgusting even beforehand.
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I can empathize with your point that these mints contain so little gelatin that it hardly matters, since they really do contain very little gelatin. But vegetarianism often follows shortly after you decide that “my impact doesn’t matter” isn’t a valid argument for not doing your best anyways, as that’s also typically the excuse for still eating meat for as long as you did, when you had already decided that it’s immoral.
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It’s often easier to not eat something at all than to make exceptions, because you have to inform yourself on the impact for the latter. This may be an impossible task, because you will find hardly any information for the concrete supply chain of the product you’re looking at.
For example, I would be morally a-ok with eating gelatin, if it came from the bones of cows that died of natural causes. Cows dying of natural causes is practically not a thing, but leaving that aside, I’d need to know the gelatin suppliers and their bone suppliers and would need independent audits of them to have even a chance of knowing the impact. Compare that to just looking for a greenVon the packaging or quickly scanning the ingredient list. I may be a moral Goody Two-Shoes, but I’m also lazy.
I realized I forgot to reply here, but you covered it all pretty thoroughly! I don’t find it appetizing anymore, though I do miss the texture of gummies and still hope to find something closer to it than pectin, but trying to jump through all the mental hoops to justify it etc just ain’t worth it. I draw a pretty simple line at whether an animal dies for something or not, and that works well for me. It isn’t particularly difficult to find alternatives to stuff like altoids either, though I will say I like their classier metal tin ahaha. But I just gave them away and bought something else, easy peasy
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Also milk powder and whey - there’s so many god damn chips where you go “why the fuck does that need milk powder?”
The real answer to that question is the dairy industry. Same reason there’s high fructose corn syrup in so many random things - corn industry.
Yup it costs food processors next to nothing due to the subsidized overproduction.
Dammit I shouldn’t be subscribed to Belle Delphine then I guess.
At least it has the juice, I suppose
And tbf, I can’t imagine a more beautiful thing
i was about to recommend katyes, because they are great and cost like 1€ a bag in local stores, but apparently, thats 5€ on amazon (fuck amazon), so unless u can get them locally, thats not exactly a good option :<
Yeah, I’ve had (many of…) them while overseas and they’re probably some of my favorite veggie gummies, but sadly quite expensive back here in the states. They’re a precious part of my luggage returning ahaha, maybe not entirely a bad thing I can’t get them quite that cheap here… that and freia chocolate
Beer is safe here in Germany! :D We’ve got a thing called “Deutsches Reinheitsgebot”/“The German Law of Purity”, that prohibits the use of anything but water, barley, hops and yeast in making beer. So the beer itself is always vegan, you just have to watch out for little dumb stuff like the brand Bitburger using Milk-based glue for the labels on their glass beer bottles.
That is not true.
Filtrate medium is not considered to be an ingredient, nor are additives that are removed by filtration except for technically impossible residue. This most notably includes PVPP as a coagulation agents to remove polyphenols which otherwise could help in the formation of haze when the beer is stored improperly or over longer times.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyvinylpolypyrrolidone
So no, beer in Germany does not have to be vegan by default.
PVPP is vegan though, but isinglass isn’t
I know. It is just that there is articles every now and then that complain about “plastic in beer” and reference the fact that this is not a violation of the German purity law.
Does PVPP come from animal products? Everything I could find about it suggests petrochemicals. Which is technically vegan. *ahem* “Vegan leather” *ahem*.
It is not an animal product. It came to my mind as an example because every other year or so i see articles complaining about “plastic in beer” being allowed in Germany.
Using isinglass, which comes from fish, for filtration is not common in industrial breweries in Germany, but it also isn’t prohibited. Industrial breweries mostly use diatomaceous earth filters. So in a first step they mix the beer with the PVPP so that coagulation can occur. Water is mixed with diatomaceous earth and run through a filter sieve, where the diatomaceous earth is retained and forms a filter cake and then the beer is run through that filter, removing almost all of the PVPP.
A similar process can be done using the isinglass instead of the PVPP and using isinglass is more common for filtration of wine.
So most beer probably is vegan (aside from the traces of insects and rodents that made it into the grain-silo), but there is no legal guarantee that every product made according to the German purity law is vegan.
I’ll just stick to limiting my meat intake.
For more than a decade I was discouraged to ever begin thinking about going vegan, because all the vocal internet vegans convinced me that unless everything I eat, wear, own, come in contact with or thing about, never ever touched something that touched something that touched an animal, I am basically a Hitler, and just as bad as those all meat weirdos. You either holier than everyone, or you’re the worst monster possible. Vegetarians are worse than meateaters because they want the vegan superpower but don’t do the whole penance. And they all equally monsters, and if I just stop eating meat I might as well eat people alive.
Bullshit like that hypnotised me for way longer than I am happy to admit.
Damn, I didn’t know about the sugar and beer. Guess i gotta look up what I’m drinking
This will help
But yeah beer is weird. Some places use some weird shit as filtering agents
Thanks :)
