We need to get back to being human beings and human doings
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I once took an American friend out for a night in Manchester. His first night in the UK.
That dispelled a lot of the narrative of the quaintness of Europe.
There’s this thing that Americans have. An old world ideal. Where they picture is all having two hour lunches and generally chilling about the place. It isn’t real, just another dream sold to you by capitalism.
Sure, we do some things differently over here, public transport and the ability to walk places being two that I’m particularly fond of, but let’s not rose tinted this.
The rise of fascism, or at least nationalism, is coupled with some awful working practices, mainly imported… And some of the levels of outright poverty, both urban and rural more than challenge that in the states.
This is just another reflection of the grass being greener.
You think Europeans are friendly? In my experience people are just people. The folk I’ve met in North America have been lovely, by and large and we have much, much more in common than this fairy tale suggests. But it swings both ways and we also have plenty of arseholes across Europe that would as soon as shank you as they would invite you for a chat and not ask you what you did.
That is kind of the thing. Americans earn extremely well. So when Americans move to southern Europe, they are either retired or have a great remote job. With cheap houses in the rural parts of those countries and access to public health care, you can actually have a pretty chill lifestyle.
That is to say: Capitalism is great for capitalists.
I do wonder how much this is about moving from urban spaces to rural spaces as opposed to geographic discrepencies.
It depends, but in poor cities like Sevilla the suburbs have some decent apartments or houses for basically a good(like less then $100k) annual US salary. Those will have light rail access, so living car free is still possible.
There’s this thing that Americans have. An old world ideal. Where they picture is all having two hour lunches and generally chilling about the place.
I’m pretty sure I saw stats saying that in EU people actually do work less than in US. For example in most EU states you get way more paid leave than in US.
they picture is all having two hour lunches and generally chilling about the place.
I’d say it’s overselling it, but there’s a grain of truth to that.
some of the levels of outright poverty, both urban and rural more than challenge that in the states.
It depends. In poland where I live there are pretty much no slum districts despite being less developed than US in general.
You think Europeans are friendly? In my experience people are just people.
From what I gather US has that culture of fake friendliness, while in EU people react just more honestly. It might not be that pronounced in UK that shares more culture with US than EU.
I think my main problem is with Americans talking about “Europe” as if it is a singular monolithic entity similar to the US (which we all know is far more nuanced and the difference between Texas and Maine is vast).
That over-simplifocation, over-generalisation is a strong narrative, but a really useless one.
Also, Poland! Wonderful. One of the most genuinely decent places I’ve visited.
As for the fake friendliness… It r really isn’t something I’ve encountered with Americans, at least no more than in capital cities all over the world.
To be fair the UK is actually depressing
I’m from the Netherlands and don’t think I’ll ever go back if not in my own bubble on a holiday not interacting too much
Such misery I haven’t seen elsewhere as what your people vocalize. And the aggression is off the charts. I have my hopes up for Ireland, haven’t been yet. But england? Nah, seen enough.
Every hometown is “a shithole” when you ask about it, indoctrination is complete with even “soulful folk” proudly exclaiming the most dumb standpoints
And the ones that rise above that are just more affluent and turn a bit more quiet so as not to risk showing their own true colors. Hypocrites, behind the elbows we call that. Class consciousness. Not European at all in my opinion. I kind of hope nowadays you guys don’t ever get to return, it’s that bad.
I hope it gets better for you over there but where I live lunches can last 1,5 hours and work still gets done with a vengeance
Most British people have been slowly crushed by 45 years of neo liberal economics. Its sucked the vitality and investment out of every town and village as the country deindustrialized and turned into a hub for casino capitalism in London
I imagine the Brits were happier before Thatcher arrived.
The poverty is extreme in some places. Even moreso just people’s demeanor. Lower class is degenerate in the way that they both hate what’s happening and do everything they can to make it worse by voting for right wing parties fueled by xenophobia as all they feel they want to control is their own living area and what else but a paki or a wog to blaim
I’m following the count binface saga for a bit, let’s see if something happens there
I won’t pretend to know the answers but I will say British folk are usually predictable to a t. Fancy clothes, handbags for men and vitriol for breakfast
When I visited Ireland everybody embodied this post. Everyone walked everywhere, 99% of my interactions were genuinely pleasant and friendly, it was a weekday but people were out enjoying a long lunch on a sunny day in Dublin.
Can’t recommend enough.
I know a few UK people who moved to your country, all have pretty much vowed never to return to the UK. Every time I visit I wonder how you manage to do things so right (at least in comparison to the UK). The equivalent of UK council estates are a completely different vibe over there, the children seem so much happier and the work culture so much more chill.
The UK is very different from southern Europe
And large parts of “Southern Europe” are radically different from each other.
Ok? But the UK is even more different
The UK is not Europe, as I’m sure you know about the whole brexit thing.
Come on, of course it is. It’s not EU anymore but it’s still in Europe.
They seem like quite the outlier then if you really insist on including them.
If its just a geographic thing you mean, then sure its in Europe.
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Also, the dude literally cites Greece, who do you think bailed out of the EU first? Does that mean Greece isn’t in Europe?
What do you mean with that? Greece is still in the EU. The EU bailed out Greece not that Greece left the EU.
Also, the dude literally cites Greece, who do you think bailed out of the EU first? Does that mean Greece isn’t in Europe?
Well not Greece because it’s very much still a member of the EU. It even still uses the Euro as a currency. Of all its members, the UK is the only one that left.
Greece didn’t bail out of the EU. Its still a member. It tried to reassert its monetary sovereignty during the Eurozone crisis and was crushed by Germany and forced into vicious austerity.
He cited an American visiting the UK as an example of an American learning about Europe. I simply disagree that you can learn much about Europe from visiting the UK.
Cool, disagree away. Doesn’t change anything.
You said “the UK is not Europe” and I agree. Europe is massive and diverse.
Maybe that’s what you meant.
What you earn and what you do….never understand asking that when you meet someone. Canadians seem to do it too.
The vast majority of us spend 40 hours per week on that thing, it’s a big part of our identity.
This is true of a lot of the world. We don’t judge people on what they do or earn though, or make it our entire character.
North America was the industrial powerhouse of the world until quite recently, and it also happened to be completely organized around the need for settlers to buy up and captialize on property. It is a culture centered on adversarial productivity; there’s a reason fascism has always boiled under the surface.
Capitalism exhausts the earth and its people. I don´t think southern Europe is excluded.
I dont think i’d survive the American hustle life, where everything is a potentially sale and money is all your ever taught to create.
This guy is a weird spiritual business guru. This post isn’t an observation on modern American life, it’s one of his many posts that try to sell you on his business where he claims that he can teach you how to monetize your passions and not have to actually work
This guy is a weird spiritual business guru.
Why should I care?
Because while everyone is assuming this is a tweet by just some guy who keeps running into Americans at the Pub who tell him about how great life is after moving, in reality he’s a business owner making a sales pitch
Knowing it’s a sales pitch, do you still believe he regularly runs into Americans who moved to Italy? Or do you think maybe he’s just making that up to try to sell his business to Americans?
That’s choice is up to you I guess, but at least now you know
Their intentions do not disqualify the legitimate point made though. As a European, the last time I considered I could maybe live in the former united states was around 1997. So well before it turned full-on shithead Magastan.
Sure but… does he keep meeting Americans that moved and didn’t know life could be that way though?
More than one thing can be true at a time but while this reads like just some guy who keeps going to the local pub and meeting Americans who talk about how great life is after moving, in reality he’s a business man making a sales pitch.
It’s kind of working too. The amount of people here who didn’t think to research who this guy is and just took his word for it is… something.
I’m not saying the guy is a grifter, I don’t know. I don’t know if he’s right or wrong. My point is to make people aware this is a sales pitch not a genuine observation. And it’s a sales pitch by a “spiritual guru”, for what that’s worth
Personally, the US is a big place and so culture varies state-to-state. Where I live, people don’t ask you what you do for a living when you first meet them
blue checkmark rule
it’s not just being stuck in it. if you voluntarily leave it, you’re labeled aberrant.
I see all the reels of Europeans coming to the US for the World Cup and they’re shocked how nice we are, how good the food is, etc etc. I have to remind myself that they’re visiting and that yes, we are nice on average and we don’t all live like an episode of The Wire, they don’t have to experience our job culture, health care, car requirement, extreme weather, and batshit insane and corrupt political system. Yes this is a great place to visit, but your life here is very much dictated by the hand you were dealt at birth.
Also these people are on vacation. People are in a good mood on vacation. They don’t mind a lot of everyday bs. They don’t really care of the food prices because they already spent a couple thousands to be there. Emotionally, they are in a theme park.
And importantly, they are drunk.
They’re also the kind of people who, apparently, have no problem traveling to the US despite the country having captain orange pedophile behind the wheel. You know, morons.
… and my entire American life has been an oscillation between being indescribably furious, knowing that ‘it doesnt have to be this way’ and then laughing uproariously at people being surprised by the astoundingly predictable outcome of literally every one burning out and crashing out.
This never could work, the way we do things… its inhuman, and insane.
It is no measure of sanity to be well adjusted to deeply disturbed society.
We’re just now finally experiencing the part where gravity resumes affecting Wile E Coyote.
… but we have a very long way to still fall.
As a neruospicy person that’s also an INTJ on the Meyer Briggs scale, let me tell you that “infuriating” doesn’t even come CLOSE to describing it.
Like I’ve spent 30 YEARS thinking of how to fix this busted system, read stoic, humanist, capitalist and socialist philosophy, Examined several world religions, studied most of european history, and am up to date on most science,… in short, I’m not a “know it all,” I make it my business to be well versed.
So when I come up with an idea of how to really get down to the nuts and bolts of the issues, only to be told that my solutions would never work, the only thing I have to say to everyone is
“Not with that attitude.” As I scream internally.
Hah, yeah you’re basically descibing my 20s.
Now, I’m an absurdist / cynical bastard, who just laughs as … 90% of all the things I told people would happen, are currently happening, to society broadly, and themselves personally.
None of these people ever apologized for the mockery and social ostracization and gaslighting they did for the last 20 years… so fuck em!
That I was correct means nothing. That I caused them to experience the cognitive dissonance of their lack of actually thinking about things… is apparently the only thing that matters.
Which basically just means these people are selfish, egotistical, and lazy.
The good news is that I don’t actually have to do anything about that. I can safely exist in my own way, at a bit of a distancd, while these idiots do their own survival of the fittest to each other.
I just had to get over the immense grief of fully realizing the extent to which I could do nothing about the incredible amount of unnecessary harm most normies gleefully do to themselves and others.
That is apparently just the human condition.
As someone who self-identifies almost the same exact way: yes, shit’s way beyond infuriating.
Like I’ve spent 30 YEARS thinking of how to fix this busted system
The only conclusion I routinely come to is that this whole place operates like one gigantic work camp, and (in a way) we’re still in the colonial era, built on top of centuries of extractive capitalism. We’ve made some progress by eliminating slavery, but the actual colonialism part has concluded within the continental US; it’s still happening elsewhere. The suffering doesn’t stop until we dramatically curtail incentives for exploitation of all forms.
There’s a bunch of ways that could take shape, but as you suggest, they all require a change in attitude to pull off.
Slavery is still very much alive in prison systems. So nope, not even that.
Fair. I keep forgetting about that loophole.
Apparently I live in the wrong Southern Europe
It’s okay, I live in Ohio and we work like this, but instead of asking what you do we ask which high school you went to, and what you think about <sports team>
American here - we’re conditioned from birth to think not working as hard as possible to make money for somebody else is lazy.
I’m in the fortunate position that I could tell my chronically ill spouse to just not work.
Took them literally years to work through the guilt of not working, the capitalist conditioning of work being your source of value was so strong.
Of all the things I’ve accomplished in my life, knowing that my beautiful, creative, loving spouse gets to spend their days not being crushed by the capitalist machine is my most cherished.
The better post that I saw was someone saying how ex-USA citizens jumped at loud sounds because we fear gunfire and Europeans took them in stride.
Ehh… Probably a bit hyperbolic. Most people are jumpy around loud things, not because they are afraid of guns, but because loud noises are surprising. Your brain isn’t very involved in most of your body’s reflexive actions.
Plus, most Americans haven’t been around people firing guns either. And the sound that a gun makes changes pretty drastically based on environment and where you are relative to the shooter. The most common reaction to actually being shot at is generally confusion not fear.
Lol, being afraid to die. Where in america do they live, Hawaii?
The comments in here are largely centered around “How can I get out?” Or alternately “Getting out is not possible.”
I came across this post last year, and it gave me the kick in the pants to get out myself.
https://crazypeople.online/post/6720157
Been out of the states since January. I started in Portugal and I can confirm how relaxed it is there. I’m in Morocco now and have met the most kind and welcoming people I’ve ever known. Very relaxed here as well. I don’t currently have plans to return.
It may or may not be possible for you depending on your specific situation. If you are in the “How can I get out?” camp, I’d encourage you to think seriously about making it happen. Look at how you could radically change things. Sell everything, quit your job, and crash at a family member’s house. The barriers are likely lower than you imagine, and the upsides are dramatic.
I’d like to point out squats as an option too. It is sometimes bad, but usually super mild. People on speed raving a lot. If that’s what it takes to get the first few months out of the way, fuck it
There’s also couchsurfing.com or trustedhousesitters.com. We stayed in a place for a month for free and just had to take care of their cat and dog. It was a really good experience, and we’ve been doing it internationally off and on ever since to help mitigate rent.
So… two hour lunches. But I thought they still had a 40 hour workweek in most places. So do they work 8 to 6? Or is the 2nd hour of lunch technically work time?
Yes we have a 40 hour work week (germany). Standard working hours are 8.5 hours a day, which includes 8 hours of paid work and a mandatory 30 minute unpaid break (So it’s really a 42,5h week). I have never heard of a 2 hour lunch ever from anyone I know that works a regular job. On the contrary, many people simply work through their 30 minute break (Which is against the law but it can be difficult to enforce and you get singled out and bullied by management very quickly if you start acting up about it in many low income jobs)
Housing prices have been skyrocketing for decades and many people are struggling to pay for rent and groceries because wages have been stagnating when adjusted for cost of living at the same time. The welfare state has been and continues to be gutted in most parts of europe under the guise of saving money for war efforts or the covid crisis or climate change or whatever issue is available to justify it in the current moment.
Police are increasingly militarized and overly aggressive although they kill less people (Unjust killings are still happening all the time though).
Censorship is also ever increasing. For example targeting all shades of the “Pro-Palestinian” political movements, or incidents where people get their house raided etc. for posting unfavorable remarks about politicians on the internet. There are also incidents of courts making overly harsh judgements to create examples out of cases against leftist lawbreakers to send a signal to the populous.
It’s the same shit over here, just slightly milder. As a poor person in europe these posts read like either pure propaganda or uneducated statements made by comfortably wealthy european workers and small business owners or american tourists. I think it’s sad that being slightly better than the USA seems to be enough for so many people to proudly support all the deplorable shit that is happening in their own home countries.
It is a lot milder in key aspects. In Germany it is way less common that people go bankrupt over health issues. People can usually stay home when sick, paid, and those days aren’t deducted from holidays either or similar nonsense. Of course there are problems and things are moving rather in the wrong direction but things are not almost the same (“slightly better”). If you think the social system is almost as bad in Germany I doubt you have experienced how things are for the poor in the US. It is not just a little bit worse. And lets not even start about the privatised prison system and laws designed to fill those privatised prisons instead of reducing crime. Then there are laws deliberately designed to prevent poor people from voting etc.
The original post said southern Europe, so Italy, Spain, Greece, etc. In these places many businesses close around lunchtime and reopen later in the afternoon. So typical opening hours may look like 8am-12:30pm, 3:30pm-7pm. That’s not all places (restaurants or large grocery stores don’t follow that format, obviously), but many shops do it.
Really depends on where you work. I’d say the vast majority does not have 2h lunches. That only happens in pretty relaxed jobs or for upper management, who probably bill it as work meeting anyway. Probably not all that different from America.
Edit: At least in Germany. Italy or Spain might might be more relaxed.
imagine living in europe and wanting to turn it into the USA. That is what a lot of conservative and liberal politicians feel like to me.
There are places in America that are like this, you have to be able to afford it though.
Yes, the naivety of OOP not realizing that southern Europe is some of the most expensive real estate in the world and that the Americans moving there are moving with hoarded wealth is hilarious to me. “Let them eat cake” energy
What are you talking about? Real estate prices in southern Europe vary widely. Centers of the main cities on the coast are very expensive, everything else not so much. You will find the same lifestyle in Marbella and Cordoba but the prices are completely different. Not to mention all the smaller towns and villages with lots of real estate for sale. “Hoarded wealth” my ass.
Yeah that’s just bullshit. Housing is expensive in main hubs like the Netherlands or Germany in Berlin or whatever. Not everywhere, by a long shot. Though we know why: commuting an hour is the norm
Last time I checked there were actually non-rich people in southern Europe.
People don’t seem to realize that rich people actually need non-rich people living near them, and they’re not all live-in servants.
There’s like 6 of them
Most of Southern Europe is significantly poorer than most of Northern Europe…
Yeah, give Mexico City a try. It’s very much the same, only not so financially out of reach. You can get an okay house there for like $70,000 so you can buy a $2.5 million mansion. It’s up to you and what kind of money you have.
I’m just coming back off of three weeks there and holy crap what a difference between America and Mexico.
Every street corner has foot traffic. There are shops every two city blocks for a 20 mile radius. There’s a variety and art and culture, and everyone’s just taking it easy. No one’s in a big rush, even when their traffic is absolutely insane, it’s insanity that’s dealt with with a logical mind.
Culturally, America is 100 years behind Mexico City.
Mexico City has horrible air quality, is running out of water, and is literally sinking because of over-consumption tho? Not exactly where I’d want to make any long-term plans.
I’ve been to Mexico a few times, and I never would have described it that way to anybody. I literally saw people living in sheds when I went there.
I haven’t been to Mexico City, but I did get to go to Puerto Vallarta, and it seemed to match that person’s experience. It was safe, cheap, and beautiful. Honestly I don’t remember seeing people living in sheds, but it might have been outside of the places we visited. Traffic was annoying, but less than a similar-sized city in the US. It helped that lot of people walked or used bikes. And the food was really fresh.
The guy we were visiting was from the US and had moved there essentially because it was so nice while still having a very low cost of living compared to probably anywhere in the US. He mentioned the culture there was much more relaxed about time, so I wouldn’t be surprised if they had a lot in common with OP’s view of Southern Europe.
Some cities in Mexico are safe, some are not, just like most countries.
I didn’t see people living in sheds in the city, it was outside the city.
Are you sure it’s hoarded and they didn’t just spent it on a home in Southern Europe?
I feel like you have never been nor seen from afar the situation in most southern europe countries huh
Ugh. Prosperity Gospel. I can’t even begin to describe how much I loathe this concept.
I’m no theologian, but I see this as a perversion of the Protestant Work Ethic. The optics are the same, but the cause-and-effect are swapped in order to whitewash (bible-wash?) greedy behavior.
Living in europe is def more chill than USA but i agree that it’s been romanticised too much lmao
Or be so poor and in such a backwater place that time has no meaning.
That’s where my van’s going.
I’m originally from Mississippi. I feel this comment.
My dad always called it the land that time forgot…
Exactly the kind of place I was thinking. Missouri had the same places.
Where
Seattle. It’s changed a lot, but it used to be affordable and that it was taboo to even ask where you worked. Reps would blow you off constantly to go skiing or hiking. Now, the greeds have taken completely over, but the lifestyle remains.
Ah, so were like this
No, it’s still mostly like this, you just have to be rich to live in the city.
You’re mentioning one city, talking about needing money to live there. The entire continent of Europe is like the op’s post. Not just southern Europe and not just cities. And you don’t need to be rich to live there.
Madison, Wisconsin. Most of the Great Lakes area (sans Chicago) in my experience. It’s a beautiful region. Lots of cultural holdover from the Scandi immigrants that first populated it
