- cross-posted to:
- fedimemes@feddit.uk
- cross-posted to:
- fedimemes@feddit.uk
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What I never understood is why don’t the free speech absolutionists embrace lemmy?
The fediverse should be the epitome of self determination, individualism and saying whatever you want to say without some higher power telling you that you can’t…
Hence why I don’t think conservatives today are truly right wing, they don’t really do the shit they claim they are all about.
Because they don’t want the freedom to say what they want, they want to force everyone to listen. Lemmy is terrible for that as we’ll defederate them real fast. I forget who they were but I chose my instance over willingness to defederate from a bigot instance and if I have to I’ll change instances over it
Hence why I don’t think conservatives today are truly right wing, they don’t really do the shit they claim they are all about.
They never did, except maybe in the 80s or someshit
Right so saying I want a truly conservative voice has some merit and doesn’t mean your inviting the trolls that claim they are cons and instead are just contrary.
I mean for all we know they might and just choose not to federate.
Some of us don’t live in bubbles and would’ve heard about it. We heard about Voat and Gab and Truth, we’d hear about it. Conservatives are very bad at keeping secrets.
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Such a bummer the 80s futuristic look ever caught on past then, car dashes that made you feel like you are on the enterprise were awesome.
Uhh, I think you posted to the wrong thread lmao
That doesn’t make it less true, does it?
Lol no, no it does not
Idk, maybe they just really like talking about car dashboards.
Hyundai is doing some relevant things.
Just need an LCARS theme.
I’ll take a non-maga right wing user over a tankie any day. It’s not even close.
non-maga right wing
How many of those are left? Two, three?
I remember before 2016, I had respect for some right-wing folk online who, while far from agreement with me, I regarded as simply legitimately misguided (in a “Free markets because gubmint bad”) kind of way.
It was… eye-opening to see how many of them went mask-off in the Trump years, and how fast and fiercely they did it.
Given what the USA considers rightwing (lunatic) compared to Europe, I’d rather ignore tankies when they go further than I prefer. I at least agree with them some of the time. USA rightwingers are deranged even if they aren’t in the MAGA sphere.
We had shooters killing doctors already in the 90s and it’s only got worse since then.
I’m lost. What is a tankie?
Authoritarian Communism or Socialism. They are generally in favor of a strong military and central state government that projects power and maintains social order, and ideally social progress through strict law and order methods people who look at Mao and Stalin as necessary or a net gain at least, hopefully they aren’t into Pol Pot’s methodology, as it was clear his primary objective was to constantly purge his own supporters while trying to starve and kill anyone that wasn’t a multi generational rice farmer of strictly Cambodian ethnicity or identity. But Pol Pot isn’t like totally out of pocket for what they’d like to see happen either. So yeah. Authoritarian Communism or Socialism, police state, rolling tanks over disodances. Hence Tankies.
They are not called tankies because of rolling tanks though
The term “tankie” was originally used by dissident Marxist–Leninists to describe members of the Communist Party of Great Britain (CPGB) who followed the party line of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union (CPSU). Specifically, it was used to distinguish party members who spoke out in defence of the Soviet use of tanks to suppress the Hungarian Revolution of 1956 and the 1968 Prague Spring, or who more broadly adhered to pro-Soviet positions.[6][7]
From Wikipedia
wdym?
who spoke out in defence of the Soviet use of tanks
Do you actually don’t know, or is this step one of a contrarian about to start their brilliant exposé?
Lets assume this is sincere and you don’t have access to a search engine: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tankie
edit: 2 years on Lemmy and you don’t know what a tankie is, lucky you
I’m asking since i was wondering what they meant by it. Have seen the word but never bothered to look it up, and instead of infering the meaning I asked.
Don’t use Wikipedia as a source if you want to come off as serious. Thats like, middle school level knowledge, at least in our schools. You still haven’t told me, and I guess that i’ll find several definitions, cause that’s usually how it goes.
Wikipedia is probably the most trustworthy source around. It can be wrong so you should still verify it if you want to be sure. But, I don’t think there’s another site with a large amount of knowledge that is so consistently accurate.
What you should have learned from school is that you don’t cite it in your papers, because it’s not the original source for anything. But, you definitely should be using it for your research and using its citations to go deeper.
Don’t use Wikipedia as a source if you want to come off as serious. Thats like, middle school level knowledge, at least in our schools.
I was spot on.
About being condescending? Yes, you are. You showed what level you’re on by sending a Wikipedia link.
You’re like one of those troglodytes that answer a question with a lmgtfy-link unsarcastically.
Says the person who’s been here for two years and doesn’t know what a Tankie is.
You should be clicking those lmgtfy links btw.
Keep being more of a tool.
Why? It’s similar but worse, driven by irrational anxiety with less reason and more potential to do the world harm…
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Replied to the wrong comment. My b.
This screams that people with different opinions aren’t people with valid opinions and lead to further dialectic conversation, and I reject that premise.
Conservatives should be welcome. Everyone should be welcome.
I disagree, Nazi’s have zero place anywhere in society outside of a history book.
They’re not Nazis. Calling them Nazis just makes it easier to do this stuff
I don’t think they were saying they’re Nazis; unfortunately, many people can’t recognize the harm a group does if that harm is slow or “off-screen” (like the poverty or civil restrictions most conservative policies inevitably result in).
I think they were just using a conservative group such as the Nazis since it’d be much more obvious to the average person as to why we need to draw a line, with some groups, and cleanly indicate why OP’s blanket statement that “everyone should be welcome” can’t possibly be true.
There are those who view this offer to share their thoughts and existence as an opportunity to permanently terminate the same of others.
Are “they” in the room with us right now?
I disagree, Nazi’s have zero place anywhere in society outside of a history book.
I never even said who was a Nazi, just that they don’t have a place in society.
way to miss the point…
Wow, it’s almost like you have trouble to make yourself understood. There are more than one that “misread” what you wrote, so perhaps some introspection is due.
wow, it’s almost like you’re obtusely misrepresenting your comprehension of what you read.
Not sure why anyone would want to make themselves appear dumber than they are but, hey I won’t kink-shame.
They’re openly fascists. I don’t know why you’re trying to split hairs. They’re not hiding it.
But they aren’t nazis. Just like you probably aren’t a naxalite, even though you might have a similar opinion on specific subjects.
Argue the point of a subject and stop swerving off to name calling.
who are “they”?
Could ask you the same. You seem to imply most of all people that voted for Trump, or that agree with republicans on an issue they deem important. Hate to brake it to you, but there aren’t that many genuine nazis.
that’s not under question here. I said Nazi’s don’t have a place in society.
not who.
not what.
just Nazis.
why are you defending Nazis so much?
You imply that ordinary people are nazis.
improve your reading and comprehension because I am certain I did not.
Agree. Also Fascists and Theocrats.
What if they’re Nazis in Ukraine? Weren’t you agreeing with anti-tankie sentiment in other comments?
Nazis in Ukraine are still Nazis. Fortunately, there weren’t very many Nazis in Ukraine, and Russia just used that as a scapegoat, and only a fool would believe otherwise 😊
There’s enough that they name streets after Nazis, cover their uniforms in Nazi symbols, and appoint self-declared Nazis to positions of power.
I haven’t seen a person identify as a conservative on Lemmy without also a shitheel about civil rights.
That’s probably selection bias. Conservatives that aren’t shitheels probably don’t say they’re conservative.
Ok… well now you have. Everyone should be treated equally under the law. No one should be discriminated against.
Well… that’s not quite what I said. I said civil rights. Not equal treatment under the law. If the government passed a law banning Jewish people or that I can own a black man or that trans people can’t use their preferred bathroom, that law could be equally applied to everyone, but not effect everyone equally.
Unfortunately, the Blue would be shaking hands with the Conservative.
Hexbear literally promoted Trump before the 2024 election. Tankies love Maga.
They’re is no definition of conservative that would apply to Trump or any maga. They are much further right than that.
Wanting to undo progress made and empower old ideologies is the definition of the words politically conservative.
That’s Trump’s whole agenda.
Jesus Christ so many of you on here are in love with your echo chambers aren’t you? Every other day there is something about instance wars and oh let’s see, whom do we want to exclude today. You don’t have to like what others have to say, but you have to be able to listen to them.
You act like we only exist on this forum. Some of us have conservative family members and coworkers that we have to hear from constantly. You have to hear a none stop spew of hateful bullshit and the moment you voice any disagreement, they start shouting at you.
They have very few ideas, none of them are new and I’ve already heard every single one.
but you have to be able to listen to them.
Not when they’re absolute shit takes, hate speech, denial of basic facts, misinformation, propaganda or intolerance we don’t.
Right-wingers have long abandoned sensible debates for hate and anger, pointless “identity politics” and sucking off Trump
Tankies refuse to accept any and all criticism of the totally-not authoritarian Chinese/Russian governments no matter what facts and evidence is presented to them
No you don’t. Fascists shouldn’t be given time of day. People who don’t act with integrity or good faith don’t get to sit with civilized society. The ideas aren’t valid and don’t have any merit. They come from uneducated people who have had their head filled with hate and prejudice. They’re not good citizens or decent people. They’re hate filled time bombs. They’re so mentally weak they gave into hating other people based on prejudices talking heads have them.
They don’t get a seat. They’re opinion is not valid. They should be ostracized by all civilized society until they stop being antisocial and destructive.
And that’s the nice, merciful and patient option.
Since most people here seem to be American, the problem is their worldview. Nowadays “right wing” in america just means insane people. Americans have lost all sense of nuance, everything is black or white.
Unlike the right wing parties in Europe and Asia that aren’t fascists, right?
Nothing scary going on in France, Russia, Hungary, Korea, Germany, Romania, Austria, Italy…
There’s not that many democratic countries that are as or more right-wing than the USA. A few western democracies’ right wings are still left of the USA’s Democrat party.
It is all relative within and without each country, so it’s really hard to have an objective discussion about it between countries.
That being said, fascism seems be having a renaissance; which sucks hard. So, yeah, there’s scary shit happening everywhere.
I agree. For example: how would you Americans view this music video form almost 40 years ago? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LB9lObWclFQ&list=RDGMEMJQXQAmqrnmK1SEjY_rKBGA&start_radio=1&rv=UHChZIHePic Made in socialist Yugoslavia. Right wing? Left wing? Authoritarian? Nutjob?
Weird as hell, that’s how I would view that.
Got banned off redit for using an alt to comment on publicfreakout which I was supposedly banned from, glad this place is still left leaning, but I would rather not have a bubble like reddit either, it gets annoying and isn’t representative of the world like it should be.
The comic literally starts off with both sides fighting. That’s not a bubble, it’s not accepting of right-wing trash.
Got banned off redit for using an alt to comment on publicfreakout which I was supposedly banned from
If you were banned from a Reddit sub you’ve never posted or commented on, you won’t receive a message informing you you’ve been banned. Mostly likely cause for being banned from a sub you’ve never used is the sub using a bot to preemptively ban people it sees as “problematic” - usually but not always these bots are configured to ban anyone who has ever commented on a list of “bad” subs determined by the mod setting up the bot, regardless of content or context. There are some others, like certain porn subs will preemptively ban any account they detect that has an OnlyFans link.
The net result is if you comment on any remotely controversial sub in any context you’ve likely been banned from one or more unrelated subs, possibly without your knowledge.
This is hypothetically against the mod rules, but not enforced in any way. Mostly because of which subs tend to do it and which subs tend to be targeted.
Yeah it was a suprise to me, the issue only happened because I use an alt too, which is allowed, if its an instant permanent ban they should also disallow alts or block you from posting/commenting their on alts same way they auto ban, idk it just felt very automated and the admin response was also instantly a no, if I wanted to evade a ban itd be for a good subreddit not public freakout lol and not on a post with thousands of comments where mine is just a blip, no reason for them to care tho I dont make them money
We’re not losing any value by dismissing people who have a flagrant disregard for the truth.
That is also definitely true, they don’t want to learn or care about facts, but its nice to be aware they exist, or ppl get complacent, tiktoks just a great example of how everyone their thought the whole country was trending towards being super woke and liberal since they were in a bubble. You shut ppl out and they have no one to tell them their views are wrong lol.
I think your approach is very valid IRL, where there’s vocal nuance, and body language, and real people who probably aren’t Russian botfarms and communities that you are both part of. In that case calling-in is the far better option the vast majority of the time.
The general open internet doesn’t have much of any of that though, and general numbers and anonymity and lack of repercussions or accountability make it way too easy to be an arsehole/troll and never try to come to a common understanding. If someone’s doing that, they can fuck right off.
I think there are smaller semi-private internet communities that operate kind of half way between those extremes, where you probably have to take it case-by-case.
I think Lemmy is kinda halfway between the second and their option, but will gradually head more toward the second option as it gets bigger.
Let’s not kid ourselves, Lemmy is great because it’s still in its infancy and gen pop is still a minority for now hence the bot makers not being too interested.
Also caretakers of the forums still care enough to adress issues.
I’m happy with what we have now and the idea that it will get bigger is not something I think we should work towards but maybe that’s just me.
The comment was literally just “isnt the wind blowing towards the ocean” made it without even knowing I was banned on my main from publicfreakout, alts are allowed, so this is such an easy mistake to make there, you can get banned from any popular sub and unknowingly comment with an alt, automatically denied appeal too
id understand if I was being controversial, but it was literally such a boring aimless comment
At least we can all hate each other with public logs. I have said it many times: I hate everyone equally.
But I will say; my favorite racial slur is sand person.
im indian, growing up someone called me that so I thought i was allowed to say the n word because I was a sand one lol, like pokemon
You are allowed, just not to American black people as an insult :)
You probably just shouldn’t but the history of the word is on your side.
The n-word was applied to Indians and anyone dark enough by the British. Americans made it solely an African thing but if you read Victorian era British authors they’ll use against anyone brown. Kipling’s stories are notorious for him going along and just dropping random n-words about Indian characters in otherwise pleasant circumstances.
Lulzzzz ya I’ve heard outside of Hamburgerland saying the n word is not a big deal at all. Funny how american centric global social media platforms are when 90% of the population that isn’t American doesn’t give a shit. Can understand why using it IN the US is a stupid fucking idea ofc, say that to the wrong person they will beat the shit out of you.
Lulzzzz ya I’ve heard outside of Hamburgerland saying the n word is not a big deal at all.
Not true and I suggest you don’t try it in any english speaking countries or you are liable to get your head kicked in.
Yeah? Ok n. Go to China and see how they call black people’s just straight monkeys to their face. Or anywhere that isn’t western. Theyll treat you like literal dirt. Cuz they’ve been programmed to think black = poor/criminal. Maybe if Africa had less warlords they’d be doing better. Or if they hadn’t enslaved their own people to sell to the euros. If you’re black and read this and are mad: you should kick your head in so that we don’t have to deal with your pissy bullshit.
Can understand why using it IN the US is a stupid fucking idea ofc, say that to the wrong person they will beat the shit out of you.
So it sounds like you don’t understand why using it is a stupid fucking idea. It’s not about physical assault, it’s about not being a fucking racist dickhead. Sincerely, not an American.
You sound butt hurt
Are you seriously lecturing me, an american on Lemmy about racism? What country are you from? China? They straight call black people monkeys to their face in China 🤣 tell me what other country gives a shit about racism more. The Nordics? The ones who are swinging hard right now because of migrants? You should really check yourself.
its only an issue here because theres a reason for it to be, people 100% say it with the intention to aggravate ppl or act like they are above them because of their history, I never really thought about how other countries see it lol
Definitely not generally acceptable here in Australia
Absolutely yeah the people who say it in hatred are why it is taboo. It’s just a word. Albeit one with a toxic history
And they’re always removed about batshit things on conservative.
HOW DARE BIDEN GIVE MONEY LAUNDERER ZELENKSY MORE MONEY. HE IS SURROUNDED BY IT IN HIS CASTLE.
Like bruh shut the fuck up.
Lol did you see the one where they’re complaining about Lemmy “censorship” because their shit takes get downvoted to hell lmao
Yeah, and the sad (for them) truth is this is their free market action they love. I see your shitty opinion, I downvote it. Turns out they can’t handle that when they can’t obfuscate their unpopularity
getting downvoted is my kink though. I live for takes bad enough that they just bait people, while some others realize it’s actually just satire.
The classic ‘schrodinger’s shit post’ tactic:
Step 1:
Post something bonkers.
Step 2:
If people don’t like it:
ElOhEl yoU’ve b33n trolle3d, fucking 1d10t!
If people do like it:
Ah, Mrhrm, yes, my extremely erudite and informed opinion is in fact based, as seen by the preponderance of evidence.
…
In other words, the action of an attention and validation seeking malignant narcissist who is incapable of ever admitting they were wrong about anything, who is either always correct and should be recognized as an authoritative source of knowledge, or was obviously joking and you’re an idiot for taking me seriously.
“reality has a left-leaning bias”
You must like what I say or it is cEnCoRsHiP!!
Ha ha yeah, lyckily they are kind of few.
I injected ivermetcin infused raw milk into my veins so that I can get the REAL news quicker.
nice. You saw that new Joe Rogan episode too?
Broadcast into my retinas via neuralink.
It may have triggered my nose to bleed incessantly but I KNOW this is because I didn’t take my ONNIT & ALPHA BRAIN
That’s onnit o - n - n - I- t
It’s entirely possible.
Don’t forget the cold plunge.
I’ve said this before, and been(more than) down voted for it, but I want more conservatives, more tankies, more anything I don’t outright agree with. People will say how bad person in their echo chamber is in their echo chamber.
The early internet was so scarce it was important to find like minded people. Today the internet is so widespread it should be the opposite. It takes 5 minutes to find a entire platform filled with people who all think like you. That’s how we got flat earth conventions.
I’m confident in my beliefs and opinions, which is why I want them challenged. I want to think critically, I want difficult rhetoric. I want my world view to be challenged. I want to be uncomfortable.
This only works when they engage in good faith. So no, you don’t want more tankies and conservatives, because most of them are incapable of that. Their worldview requires that they do not.
Agree, but I think there are lots of people who are a bit more on the fence, or playing around with ideas. If someone says something stupid out of ignorance or inexperience, and they get blasted for it, they probably aren’t gonna learn much from it, and they might go hang out with the people who responded well to it…
Obviously if you try and it turns out they understand what they are saying, and are doing it intentionally, they can get fucked. Problem is it’s hard to tell sometimes, and not many people have the capacity to tolerate that behaviour enough to find out.
Problem is, they don’t argue in good faith, no matter what evidence or arguments you bring to the table no matter how long or short they’re right and you’ve just been subjected to brainwashing/propaganda.
Nor is it a debatable political position to be spread Nazi-ism or bigotry (which is what most right-wingers do)
Yeah, the marketplace of ideas doesn’t really work because people can just lie and other manipulative tactics, and people (yes, you and me too) fall for it (you are not immune to propaganda).
istg whoever solves this problem will win a fucking nobel prize.
Idk… I’m not sure I want all their racist shit echoing around in here with us.
Plus all that paradox of tolerance stuff
I’d rather not talk with people that genuinely hate me, and/or want to kill me thank you.
Me too - I can live happily with the fact that not everyone thinks like me; but I still want to know what the other people are thinking.
the bubble helps no one, remember everyone on tiktok tweaking when republicans were winning, they were also in their own social media bubbles and never see any of the “woke” mind changing type posts, mfs out here praising trump for low gas prices like they suddenly dropped when he won and haven’t already been low.
That’s a hard pitch to a platform known to be unflinchingly rigid about maintaining their wind tunnels.
I agree wholeheartedly. I’m a weird mix of politics, radically left and radically right and also sometimes the middle. The radical middle, but fuck centrists. I almost never find like minded people and that’s why I’m here. And why I get banned from echo chambers sometimes. That used to mess with my head. That was a long time ago. I just don’t give a fuck.
Please tell us your radically right policy lmao
Not OP, but here’s my radical right wing belief.
I say we deport the immigrants. ALL the immigrants. I mean anyone in the US that is an immigrant, or descended from an immigrant. Time to kick them all out! Anyone who isn’t descended from the native population, back on the boat. And damn it, this includes myself!
Damn straight! And I think I found the place that disagrees with me the most. Even Tumblr in its heyday wasn’t nearly as left wing
Tankies are right wing
Ehh not really.
Economically: The pro China ones can sometimes be pro market-ish. However, I’ve seen some of them talk about how Xi Jinping is making China have a more and more planned economy day by day. As for the pro USSR n North Korea ones, I’ve seen them range from hard anti-market to having teeny tiny sympathy for a very small, heavily state controlled market.
Socially: I’ve seen many trans ppl on hexbear. Aaaand I’ve also seen ppl claim transgenderism itself to being bourgeoisie manufactured fake science to distract the population from the real issue- class warfare. HOWEVER, I have seen none of them defending religious beliefs or ideals.
Therefore, the only thing similar that they share with right wingers, is that their political structures would over time evolve into stateful, classful, authoritarian systems.
Oh, and yeah- they both really love strongmen…
Your last two paragraphs explain how they are actually right wing, because the authoritarianism has already happened and they still support it.
“Planned economy” is just state capitalism. It’s not better than neoliberal capitalism, it just has a red flag, and tankies are fool enough to think that makes difference.
Surely there is a meaningful difference between a planned economy/command economy and a semi-regulated market economy? Like, I get that corporate control can still be authoritarian, but it’s different to state control in some ways, I think?
I didn’t say it was no different. You can tell because I used different words for the two things.
I said it was no better.
this is why left vs. right isn’t nuanced enough for real political discussion outside of a two party system
It’s why we can’t just go around believing everybody who claims to be a leftist. We need to evaluate the actual effects of their actions. If they are oppressing the workers as every state does, they are not left wing.
Labels never more useful than just as a shortcut to understanding someone’s whole nuanced belief…
Yeah, but that’s what I’m doing. I am evaluating the beliefs of authoritarians of all kinds and concluding that they are right wing.
I’m not throwing out the labels, I’m saying this left-right-auth-lib pair of dichotomies is not useful.
They were saying that there are more axes than left/right, and that the left/right axis is typically not one of authoritarianism.
See: libertarians and anarchocapitalists are absolutely right wing but are radically anti-authoritarian.
Well, if we’re interested in the ideals of the people, then yes the political compass is a thing that you can use. The problem is that when you drill down into right wing “libertarianism” you find landlords and bosses (EDIT: actually they’re pretty much right there on the surface). They are in fact about the freedom of coporations to own and control human beings. They are pro-slavery and neo-feudalist. That is not actually libertarian, that is pro-slavery. Right-wingers always are. So in practice, it’s just a lie.
Murray Rothbard himself said that “those who call us anarchists are not on sound etymological footing”. That’s a wanker way to say it, said by a wanker, but it’s clear he understood that words mean things.
That still doesn’t matter.
Sure people misrepresent (by accident or intention) what their actual political beliefs are.
But the single axis (or even two axis) political compass doesn’t really capture the nuance and especially the authoritarian aspect.I get the feeling that by your measure, nearly everything but collectivist anarchy would be “right wing” by virtue of some axis. At which point I don’t think it’s a useful way to frame things.
There’s such a thing as left wing authoritarianism too.
There’s such a thing as right wingers who coopt left wing rhetoric and fool people into believing they are left wing. But anyone who says authoritarianism is left wing because it has some supposedly liberatory ideals is - and tankies will hate to hear this - an idealist.
Joseph Stalin: famous right wing politician
State capitalism isn’t a thing.
Engels, Lenin and Bukharin all talked about state capitalism. Lenin decried it as not real socialism.
the erroneous bourgeois reformist assertion that monopoly capitalism or state-monopoly capitalism is no longer capitalism, but can now be called “state socialism” and so on, is very common
Lenin, The State and Revolution
That was until after the October revolution, at which point he seemed to think it was based and cool actually, and that it was definitely what the USSR was doing.
Reality tells us that state capitalism would be a step forward. If in a small space of time we could achieve state capitalism in Russia, that would be a victory.
Lenin, Minutes of the Sessions of the All-Russia C.E.C., 4th Convocation. Verbatim Report
This is around the time he stripped the soviets of their power and disenfranchised the workers in favour of a central state that alienated them from control over the means of production.
You know, like a capitalist.
And now tankies are distancing themselves because they can’t square the circle that their beloved
revolutionaryheroes were actually capitalists, and they pretend the concept doesn’t exist.So tell me, was Lenin wrong about this? If so, was he wrong twice? Why the flip-flopping on whether it was good or bad? Nobody seemed to dispute at the time that it existed, and an analysis of what happened shows that the USSR liberalised quickly. The bolsheviks were in effect liberal reformists.
EDIT: They weren’t revolutionary, I don’t know why I ceded that rhetorical ground.
You’re taking things out of context. In the first example, Lenin specifically says “bourgeois reformist assertion”, he’s talking of monopoly in the context of a bourgeois state, not in a worker’s state. He understands that for as long as a strong bourgeoisie exists, not even a state monopoly can be considered socialist, because the state is in fact controlled by the bourgeoisie.
That was until after the October revolution
Wow, so you’re telling me that, when confronted with real situations and material conditions, the opinions of someone can change? Baffling.
This is around the time he stripped the soviets of their power and disenfranchised the workers in favour of a central state that alienated them from control over the means of production
Good luck fighting a civil war in which you get invaded by 14 other world powers for the sin of being a communist, while your industry is disorganized and not centralized towards the war-effort. Give as an answer as to how to fight and win such a war, maybe the entire communist part just didn’t think hard enough? Or will you say that the people who spent most of their adult life in jail or exile for organizing workers and distributing communist newspapers during Tsarism were ackchually just power-hungry tyrants?
And now tankies are distancing themselves
Wait, so tankies are actually against centralized economic planning? Strawman
an analysis of what happened shows that the USSR liberalised quickly
“liberalism is when centrally-planned economy”. Seriously, do you know what “liberalism” means?
You know your REAL problem with the Bolsheviks? That they won. The problem YOU have with Bolsheviks, is that they had to face real historical and material problems, and big ones, and therefore had to make tough decisions. You claim to know better than the people of the time that spent their literal lives in jail or exile prior to the revolution, studying and theorizing and discussing about communism in real life, risking their lives in organizing the workers and in fighting against Tsarism, and you know why? Because the ONLY socialists that supposed “leftists” like you will support, are the leftists who failed. You’ll support Salvador Allende because he didn’t face the real conditions of his time and didn’t apply the necessary policy to fight the advance of fascism. You’ll support the anarchists in the Spanish Second Republic because they failed to fight against fascism and, because of rejecting taking power, they didn’t have to apply harsh policy to fight reactionarism. But you won’t ever support actual socialists who DID understand the dangers of fascism and of capitalist counter-revolution, and actually did something about it, because as soon as they apply their ideology to real-world conditions, they’re not perfect anymore. Because they ACTUALLY were a threat to the system, and so the propaganda will paint them as intolerable autocrats, and you’ll swallow that propaganda whole and share the same views of socialists than fucking Zbigniew Brzezinsky.
At no point in any of this are you addressing the argument being made, which is that state capitalism absolutely is a thing, which means Lenin became a capitalist.
You can make excuses for it all day, the only difference between them and the liberal revolutions is ideological at that point, which makes you an idealist.
“I will overfixate on a debate on the academic definition of capitalism in order to be able to call X communist leader a capitalist instead of looking at the actual policy implemented” isn’t an honest framework to deal with this. In a worker state without bourgeoisie, such as the soviet union, there is no such thing as surplus value because there’s no capitalist class appropriating the wealth for itself. Instead, salaries are decided centrally, goods are provided at centrally-planned prices and NOT through the market principles. This is enough for me to claim that the USSR was socialist and not capitalist, and I refuse to engage in semantics rather than talking about policy: the USSR was materially and significantly different from any classical capitalist state, and much better by ANY actual metric than any capitalist state, and you’re just trying to bend definitions to call your Marxist-Leninist of choice a capitalist
That’s a hell of a gpt response and all, but no, state capitalism isn’t a thing and left wing thought has evolved in the last nearly 200 years. Except in the US.
How in the hell is that comment anything GPT-like other than the fact that it’s slightly long???
It’s the AI-related way of saying “I’m not reading all of that.”
Oh wow, you called me a bot and an American. Checkmate. No need to respond to anything I actually said, you obviously know how to get right to the heart of dismissing me so you can repeat your opinion without any actual argument.
This is very true. I’ve been told by many leftists that liberals are enemy. The right is the enemy of liberals.
Leftist have clearly decided that the enemy of my enemy is my friend by embracing right wing political candidates and echoing their propaganda.
Labor is the left wing party in the UK
They are not, but sometimes their actions can result in outcomes beneficial to right wing.
Do you think Nazis and Stalinists were left wing?
Nazis were not; despite taking the name of national-socialists, they only used socialism as a buzzword while acting in full interest of national bourgeoisie, feeding German businesses and promoting Germans over everyone. In fact, Nazism is reactionary in its nature and strongly opposed to any left-wing ideas.
Stalinists were left-wing, yes.
The purpose of a system is what it does, and the tankie system results in right wing outcomes, which makes them right wing.
I don’t particularly care if their sweet little lefty hearts bleed for the working class, or if they’re going to heaven. What matters is the results, and authoritarian structures are always right wing.
Please dont redefine words to fit your argument
As long as you don’t bother to make an argument I’d say I’m doing better.
Arguing that intention is not the same as result?
If you accidentally burn a house while trying to light a candle, your intention was to light a candle, not to burn a house
If you shouldnt be allowed to light candles because you will burn more houses is a completely different argument
You still burned a fucking house down. That is the headline. “Local dipshit tries to light candle” is not. If someone says after that, “You burned my house down!” the answer isn’t, “I was just lighting a candle!” The appropriate response is, “I did, and I understand why I can’t stay in the same hostel as you now.”
Anyway, I think that analogy is pretty poor when it comes to either of these ideologies. It’s less “I was just trying to light a candle uwu” and more, “All I did was dig a trench around the house, fill it with gasoline and set it on fire. I was trying to establish a firewall, how was I supposed to know the flames engulfing the house would be a problem? And now all my neighbours are angry at me because their houses burned down, and I’m just not responsible for that!”
I don’t know there buddy, I think you could’ve asked literally anyone who knows anything about fire how well that would go, but you clearly didn’t care enough to figure it out. Either way, that’s arson, either deliberate or through reckless indifference, you burned a fucking neighbourhood down.
And now there are apologists running around saying, “But it kept burglars away, and nobody inside the house suffered from hypothermia! This person was a hero, how dare you call them an arsonist!”
I think it’s important to understand the distinction between a faux-leftist and a faux-libertarian, and an explicit fascist for that matter. I’m not saying we should throw the information out, I’m saying it matters whether we accept that they actually are libertarian or leftist.
Also what people are “allowed” to do doesn’t seem like it’s relevant to any of this, but if you see your neighbour digging a gasoline trench you should probably stop them.
maybe in a more traditionally defined sense of the word, but neo conservatism is anything but equal to tankie based behavior.
This is too insightful to be a shitpost.
Crossposting this to !fedimemes@feddit.uk
The presumes that tankies are not actually just right wing trolls trying to divide the left via extremism.
Nah, most tankies really are that dumb.
I mean I agree. But, that doesnt preclude the possibility that there are right wing instigators and trolls on here trying to sow division.
Nah, they look similar because they’re both people very emotionally and tribalistically (as there’s quite an element of feeling part of a group in it) wedded to an ideological bundle of pre-baked ideas they took in as “undeniable truths” and do not in any way challenge with rationality and skepticism.
Both have the same way of thinking and relating to politics but tankies have adopted one ideological bundle of pre-baked ideas and modern day “conservatives” (I use quotes because they really don’t do conservation of much) adopted a different ideological bundle of pre-baked ideas.
Mind you, they’re just extreme cases of people whose relationship with politics runs along the very same behavioural lines as sports club fans. For example, here in Lemmy you often spot Democrat Party fans, which you can spot by their “the figures of the party can do no wrong” posture and similar, in contrast with, say, people who might have voted for the party for tactical or strategical reasons but don’t just take every word of their propaganda as undeniable truth.
I live in a country with a lot more political parties than the US and am even a member of a small party here, and you see that kind of mindset in al parties party and from my own experience I would even say that mindless unquestioning fans are majority of party members.
They always seem to toe that line.
